Met with my doctor and...

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby toadfood » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:14 pm

First of all, congratulations on improving those numbers! It's hard when you don't have your doctor's support.

I also second the suggestion that you look at your fruit intake, and your intake of sugar overall. Some people need to get rid of added sugars and cut way back on fruit to get their triglycerides down.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby Christine in Cali » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:24 pm

Why would people living in the bay area be deficient in vitamin D as opposed to anywhere else? We get plenty on sunshine.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby stoumi » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:27 pm

@Dissoultion, it was one I expected though, honestly. Especially after I told him what I cut out of my diet for 3 months to see the improvement.

As for the fruits, I don't eat much of any fruits now. Maybe a banana once a week, but it's been mainly veggies. I am not much of a fruit eater to begin with, so I have ruled that out as a major cause.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby stoumi » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Christine, he told me it was because we are farther north and don't get as much sun through out the year. Couple that with in the fog in bay area, yes he said that and we don't get as much as we should. In the summer time I spend a considerable amount of time in the sun and tan very easily, but sometimes that might not be all it takes, based on the earlier link that was provided. So I don't know.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby nicoles » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:33 pm

Stoumi, CONGRATULATIONS! Not only have you done amazingly well, and exceeded your physicians level of knowledge of nutrition, but you are now a proud member of the "My Doctor Thinks I am Crazy"club!

On a serious note, I have read elsewhere (I must find the actual link for you to look at, no time now, unfortunately - remind me to!) Tris can go up when weight loss is happening, even as other cholesterol related numbers decrease. In other words, it may be quite normal, although it is specifically related to a vegan, low-fat diet.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby stoumi » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:34 pm

Here was my synopsis, as I put on my web site. Not sure if I will stay with him or not, seek a second opinion of set out to prove him wrong and that I can improve my healthy without the need for medications and supplements.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby greentea » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:38 pm

Hey Stoumie,
Congrats on the positive changes you have made in your life! I wouldn't worry too much about your doc's reaction. Docs are subject to the same lifetime of misinformation that everyone else is, so really, no one should be surprised by this. You have already done the best thing. You've taken charge of your own destiny and are leading by example. You have planted a very important seed. Who knows? As time goes by and he sees your amazing improvements, you may be the one who changes his thinking! :-D
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby nicoles » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:39 pm

Ah! I see you are well aware of the Tri-info I mentioned, after reading your blog post. :-D
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby Spiral » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:50 pm

Dissolution wrote:
stoumi wrote:He also asked me where was I going to get my protein from.


BUZZZZZ! Sorry, wrong question for a doctor to ask. Please thank him for playing "Let's Pretend I Know Something About Nutrition".

Seriously, I sure wouldn't take ANY form of dietary advice from someone who asks this question, I don't care whether he's a doctor or not. I could see a question like, "Are you supplementing B-12?" or something like that, but not THE protein question. I would have laughed at him. At this point you know more about nutrition than your doctor does.

Sorry, guess I ranted a little bit...

Now that was funny. :lol: :lol: :D

There should be a game show called "Let's Pretend I Know Something About Nutrition." 98 percent of the country would qualify as contestents.

Thanks for the laugh.

Stoumi,

Great job. And don't let anyone stop you from being healthy.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby patty » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:27 pm

Jeff Novick just posted this today... not sure if you saw it:)

Vegetarianism, bone loss, fracture and vitamin D: a longitudinal study in Asian vegans and non-vegans. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2012) 66, 75–82

In spite of the fact that....

"The prevalence of vitamin D insufficiency in vegans was higher than in omnivores (73% versus 46%; P 1⁄4 0.0003)."

The study concluded...

"Conclusions: Vegan diet did not have adverse effect on bone loss and fracture. "

However...

"Corticosteroid use and high intakes of animal protein and animal lipid were negatively associated with bone loss."

From the study..

On Calcium

"We found no significant effects on dietary calcium and vitamin D on bone loss. Dietary calcium intake in the present study’s participants was relatively low, but it did not have adverse effect on bone loss. Indeed, the average dietary calcium intake among vegans was only 375mg/day, much lower than the intakes observed in non-vegetarians (683 mg/ day). In both groups, the dietary calcium intake was well below the recommended level of 1000 mg/day. Nevertheless, the low levels of dietary calcium did not have any adverse effect on either BMD or bone loss in both vegetarians and omnivores."

On Vitamin D

"Disturbingly, almost 3/4 vegans had 25(OH)D levels at the level of insufficiency and more than a quarter at the level of deficiency. Although these prevalence rates were significantly higher than non-vegetarians, the difference did not seem to translate into adverse effect on bone density or bone loss. Indeed, we found no significant correlation between 25(OH)D and BMD or changes in BMD. Although the null association could be attributed to sample size, measurement errors of both BMD and 25(OH)D, and the duration of follow-up, the finding suggests that vitamin D may have modest effect, if any, on the rate of bone loss in postmenopausal women."

NOTE: The vegans averaged at Vitamin D Level of 26.1, which by older standards was defined as insufficient. However, according to the new IOM Consensus Statement, a level of 20-30 is now considered sufficient and not insufficient and this study seems to prove that out. They were not insufficient, their levels were just lower that those on a more omnivorous diet but these higher levels in the omnivores was not protective of their high animal protein diet.

There is more to nutrition than isolated lab numbers and isolated nutrient intakes.

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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby stoumi » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:56 pm

I had not seen that yet patty, thank you for posting it.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby shell1226 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:01 am

stoumi, good for you for making such great strides in inproving your health. High five, my friend.

Most drs. know didley about nutrition. I told my cardiologist that I'm following this WOE and he just said OK. Nothing else. We must be our own self healthy advocates and do what we know is giving us results and putting us on the path to good health.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby stoumi » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:31 am

I guess the steps for me will be to continue this WOE, while adding the exercise and doing my daily walking. In 3 months I will have a blood test to see the result of the Vitamin D supplement. The more I read the more I am a bit skeptical. I then look forward to the end of July when I schedule my physical and see where my blood numbers and body are after about 10 months of this WOE and 8 months working out daily. I see only improvement in my future...and possibly a new physician.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby soliver » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:22 am

What we didn't see eye to eye on was the "diet" which I tried to explain was a lifestyle change. He understood that part of it, but he believes I will be "out of balance." I told him I gave up all meat, dairy and oils. He called it "extreme". He also said diet has helped you get to this point today, but what will you do in the future? He also asked me where was I going to get my protein from.


Should have asked him how many nutrition courses they taught him in medical school.
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Re: Met with my doctor and...

Postby ETeSelle » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:50 am

Dissolution wrote:BUZZZZZ! Sorry, wrong question for a doctor to ask. Please thank him for playing "Let's Pretend I Know Something About Nutrition".

Seriously, I sure wouldn't take ANY form of dietary advice from someone who asks this question, I don't care whether he's a doctor or not.

Yup. But 99% of doctors DO think this! I've been vegan for 20+ years and every doctor I've ever seen has said, "Where are you getting your protein/calcium?!?!?!" with expressions of extreme alarm. :lol: Other than getting fat b/c I was eating oil, marg, processsed crap, etc. I was very healthy and clearly not suffering from deficiency of anything, but that's just a knee jerk reaction for doctors. Remember who trained them (the meat, dairy, and big Pharma industries for the most part).

When we hear about a doc who understands and embraces plant-based eating we're all excited precisely b/c it is RARE. So chances are the OP can't do better doctor-wise. Just show this one! Your cholesterol will almost surely continue to drop. If your tris don't go down enough look to fruit as the culprit and reduce your intake. Eventually the doc will have to admit that this WOE worked FOR YOU. He still won't believe it works in general, but maybe in a few years someone else will come down his pike w/ success on this WOE and the evidence will begin to accumulate in his mind. :) You're an important part of that evidence!
Last edited by ETeSelle on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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