The word "vegan"

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:42 am

Alot of people that attack to vegans like to preface it with how many vegans they know or how they were once vegan. The infamous Lierre Keith who makes most or part of her living doing this, while claiming to be vegan in the past also admits to constantly binging on animal derived foods. So obviously she was not telling the truth as the most she could have been was vegetarian.

It is very simple, when people on the net write unbelievable or implausible things, I don't believe them. I live in the USA, experience it and have read up on the subject of how Americans are terribly socially isolated, and the vegan population is very tiny, likely 1-2% or less.

I think what is clear is that most the vegan bashers here are making alot of assumptions about vegans while living in a society where the majority of the adult population are overweight and incubating disease and encouraging everyone around them on the same path. So it is not just a disservice to animals but also extremely selfish against other humans. For example, this story made reddit and received over 2000 comments:
Body-Slamming Piglets to Death is Humane, Big Food Lobby Claims - Harrowing video of Canadian pig farm shows workers body-slamming piglets into the floor, swinging them into metal posts & kicking them when they can’t stand up. Pork industry says much on video is widely accepted practice.

Do you think those workers have anything resembling a good life, good health and peace of mind? Instead lets worry about not offending disembodied meat-eaters, who just want to selfishly pay for dirty work they cannot do themselves, and bash vegans.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby f1jim » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:53 am

Let's be clear about several things. There is no vegan bashing taking place on the forum. There is some debate about the use of the term "Vegan" and why some do not wish to use the term to describe their diet or lifestyle. We have several members that are proud to use the label. We have an active discussion about the use of that label and why or why not to use it. I see this as an appropriate topic and we can all do this without resorting to assumptions about any member that posts. If someone doesn't agree with a post state your reasons civilly and others can either agree or disagree. Everyones past experiences have value and merit to consider. Like most things in life every viewpoint has a strain of truth and value in it. We may not change anyones mind through this discussion but we may learn more about the world of experiences through it. We can disagree and still play nice.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby EvanG » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:45 pm

The fact is that people who do not eat meat and drink milk in the US are and will be perceived as weird and self-righteous. They can call themselves vegans, vegetaleans, starchivores, or kardashians. It does not matter, as they will still be perceived by the majority as weird and self-righteous.

The irony here, is that a lot of people think that they can avoid being seen as weird and self-righteous by claiming that they are not vegans. If you avoid the V word and say that you are eating compassionately (linked article), you come off as even more self-righteous. That is because you are directly saying that 98% are not compassionate. If you say that you are a starchivore, and describe your diet, someone will say, "oh, so you're a vegan?" You will say "No, I'm not a vegan blah blah blah blah." The other person, will think that you are self-righteous and delusional. And, for the most part, they are not listening to your reasoning. All they hear is blah blah blah.

The only draw back that I see with using the V word as a FOKer (love that), is that it will be hard to get the no oil part across. Figure out the no oil bit and the starch emphasis, and forget about distancing yourself from the queer kid - I mean the vegan kid.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:04 pm

@f1jim:
No offense, but many self identified vegans in this thread have said they feel uncomfortable and do perceive alot of vegan bashing going on, and I concur with them.

EvanG wrote:The fact is that people who do not eat meat and drink milk in the US are and will be perceived as weird and self-righteous. ...


That is an excellent point. I watched recently a Ted Talk by John Francis who is one of the most interesting people I ever heard of. After witnessing an oil spill in the San Francisco bay, he decided to do something and lead by example, he refused to ever step foot in an automobile or any vehicle powered by oil. Eventually he learned his mouth harmed his cause, so he decided to refuse to speak as well! He lived like that for several decades. How did most people perceive him? He says that many people were angered or felt threatened by his lifestyle and he faced alot of hostility. Whenever you confront people with an issue no matter how noble that they want hidden, they will take it out on you.

John McDougall gets at the crux of this in his recent talk:
The food we were born to eat: John McDougall at TEDxFremont
He says that most people were relatively more healthy in diet until they started eating like kings because of developments during the industrial revolution.

That is the crux of the issue, diet is just another way to show wealth by conspicuous consumption, to display greed and accumulation. You cannot underestimate this factor, no matter what you do or how behave, how nice you it does not matter much, if you show more consumption and waste, that is what matters most. Another aspect: have you ever seen anyone while grocery shopping ever looking at an ingredient label? But if you ask those same people about celebrities, movies, sports, you find they have lots of time invested and expertise in such trivia. It is matter of ethical priorities, people prioritize being disembodied and ignoring their interconnectedness with the environment, animals and other people. Anything you do that threatens that comfort will be perceived as hostile, no matter what tone you take.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby nordgirl » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Some people here simply do not want to be associated with the rather large number of preachy, grease-fuelled cupcake-pushers who currently populate the vegan movement.


Wow. Why knock people for caring about animals? What's wrong with being proud of having a compassionate life style?

Maybe some things are more important than your weight.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby veggylvr » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:00 pm

Thrasymachus, I think your view that Americans are socially isolated and can't possibly know that many vegans misses the fact that the internet now allows us to "know" a lot more people, certainly grouped by interests, than we ever did before.

Here, for example, are a lot of vegans - enough that I feel I can get a fairly good idea of how they eat and what they believe. If I belonged to a specific vegan blog, online group, or vegan Facebook page - or perhaps all three - I would probably "know" many more vegans.

Also, my Facebook page, for better or worse, allows me to see quite clearly how most of my friends and relatives think, vote, and eat. True, I'm not sitting down at the table with them, but today alone, several have been describing their planned New Year's meal of ham and black-eyes peas. Some even take photos.

A small percentage of my friends and acquaintances are vegan or vegetarian (probably 8 or 9 out of 100 or so FB friends), and though they're not usually pushy about it, they also post their views, just as I do, with links to FOK, Dr. Esselstyn lectures, or animal rights groups, etc.

So, I think when we say that we know vegans, it doesn't have to mean that we are in close proximity to them.

I also agree with Evan that however we describe our WOE, we're going to be perceived by some as self-righteous because we are obviously eliminating food groups that they eat, and this will trigger defensiveness in them, as if we're looking down on them and how they eat...which, let's face it, we usually are. Not that we mean to do so in a self-righteous way, but just the pity that we feel for those still stuck in SAD can inadvertantly come through and be perceived as condescending.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby JohnLarson » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:56 pm

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The McDougall Program is not a "diet," and it was not designed primarily for weight loss – however, loss of excess body fat naturally results as people regain their health. - Dr. John McDougall
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Norm » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:57 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
Norm wrote: I've known probably a dozen vegans over the years, including the ones I know now. All of them ate/eat an abundance of overly processed foods and junk foods. ...


That sounds even less plausible. To have known a dozen vegans implies a huge social network, which is what Americans lack. Out of every 100 people you meet, likely only one will be of the tiny vegan minority, which implies a social network of 120 or more people,

You make HUGE assumptions about me, and then you use these assumptions as proof as to why I'm not plausible. I know quite a bit more than 120 people. When you count in all the organizations I'm involved in I'd imagine my current social network is closer to ten times that. When you consider all of the people who've come and gone from those various groups over the years the numbers just keep growing and growing.
If vegans make up 1% of the population then it stands to reason that I've known a LOT more vegans over the years than I'm aware of. This makes a lot of sense, since I don't recall ever meeting any of them that wore badges or signs or any other easy way to identify them. Of those who've I've gotten to know well enough to be familiar enough about their diet to have included in my discussion about them, the number remains about a dozen. You are, of course, free to dismiss anything I say that differs from what a "typical American" would say, simply because it's not plausible that I can be any different than the typical American.

Thrasymachus wrote: So it makes it hard to believe when you act like an expert on the diet of vegans because of 12 vegans you say you know
I don't believe I made any pretense of being an expert. I have been very clear that my opinion is based entirely on my own very limited experience with vegans. You're the one who's saying my experience with vegans is so huge it's not plausible. I've said all along it's a small sampling.


Thrasymachus wrote: Rather I think this is the case of jumping on the vegan bashing bandwagon and meme seen often on this forum, which is particularly strong in this thread.

This is where you make your biggest and most obviously false assumption about me. I am not a vegan basher. If you actually go back and read what I've written you'll see that I have a great respect for the vegans I know and that I see myself moving in their direction. You don't seem to like that I wont call my diet a vegan diet. Does that simple fact REALLY make me a vegan basher?

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby BlueHeron » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:13 pm

Elvin wrote:
BlueHeron wrote:FYI: "Vegetarian" doesn't derive from "vegetable." It derives from "vegetus," which means lively or vigorous.


from http://www.etymonline.com :


vegetable (adj.)
c.1400, "living and growing as a plant," from O.Fr. vegetable "living, fit to live," from M.L. vegetabilis "growing, flourishing," from L.L. vegetabilis "animating, enlivening," from L. vegetare "to enliven," from vegetus "vigorous, active," from vegere "to be alive, active, to quicken," from PIE *weg- "be strong, lively," related to watch (v.), vigor, velocity, and possibly witch (see vigil). The meaning "resembling that of a vegetable, dull, uneventful" is attested from 1854 (see vegetable (n.)).


vegetarian (n.)
1839, irregular formation from vegetable (n.) + -arian, as in agrarian, etc. "The general use of the word appears to have been largely due to the formation of the Vegetarian Society in Ramsgate in 1847" [OED].


Thanks. The Vegetarian Society's website skirts that issue. I had always heard the "vegetus" explanation, but apparently that is a longstanding myth:

http://www.ivu.org/history/societies/ve ... igins.html
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby ♥ Amy ♥ » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:47 pm

I didn't have the energy to quote - so please forgive me but wanted to make a comment about the term 'fat vegan'.

I was recently at the 5 day program and Dr. McDougall used this term (and some there openly identified with it, saying, that's me!) and I looked at as a wake up call type term. Sort of a tough love approach. Definitely with a good intention and with the punchline being Dr. McDougall saying, BUT I AM HERE to HELP YOU! Obviously, all of us in attendance were there for the help. But I was shocked when a woman I befriended said to me on the break, "I think Dr. McDougall really hates fat people"! Being 300+ lbs I am definitely FAT so I was shocked that if Dr. McD had something offensive I missed it.

I assured her that Dr. McD does not hate fat people. Hearing the same lectures as she I came to a totally different result. Such is the nature and beast of two way communication that relies on our own internal reference points for understanding.

Do I love being FAT no, do I like someone else calling me FAT no, but I am - so there's not much I can do about it but get un-FAT or like my 5 year old says, "when I get smaller".

I guess my point is that I agree everyone here's things differently but I agree with f1jim that context as well as tone and motivation are really what makes something offensive or not. I think Dr.McD is trying to wake up people with these labels. He also mentioned that he loves working with fat vegans because they have already given up meat and dairy with success and now they just have to ditch the junk.

Ok, sorry if I prolonged this thread - but I was just relating to what I read and felt the need to share...
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Wild4Stars » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:38 pm

I have never had a moment of criticism from a 'plant based' person. But I've had some run-ins with vegans that made me decide I didn't want to be one !! Just my experience, may mean nothing to anyone else.
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