The word "vegan"

[Debbie]

I'm not exactly sure why something so exact in it's description would be offensive but be sure to write Dr. McDougall a note telling him you find it offensive. My goodness we are all a bit sensitive these days.
f1jim

Maybe it's the holidays? I wonder if it's the word fat? Would chubby sound better? I'd hate to see the flack Dr. McDougall would get if he called them obese vegans.

[Wild4Stars]

I find the term "fat vegan" offensive.

I find childhood obesity offensive, but if we don't name it and talk about it we can never find a solution for it. We are sometimes frozen by our fear of offending someone. It has to be named and talked about to be solved.

[JohnLarson]

I find the term "fat vegan" offensive.

I should have posted a smiley or something. I really figured someone would have seen some sort of humor in my statement...

[Debbie]

I find the term "fat vegan" offensive.

I should have posted a smiley or something. I really figured someone would have seen some sort of humor in my statement...

Yeah, probably should have. LOL After how this thread went, its so hard to tell. People found offense where none really was. ^shrug^

[BlueHeron]

Even if you meant it as humorous, some people are going to agree with the statement.

I think the problem is that "fat" is often used to stand for a whole host of things that have nothing to do with weight. After all, the fat acceptance movement uses the word fat. Unfortunately, "fat" is also used to mean lazy, undisciplined, and self-indulgent - when people who are fat might be none of those things.

Dr. McDougall often refers to people as "fat and sick." I was thinking about what would have happened if he had called it "the sick vegan." That would be just as accurate - more so, in my opinion, as I know plenty of thin people who eat nothing but junk. I know they aren't healthy. They just don't gain weight. But people care more about weight than health.

That's why those pictures of people's colons that were posted here were so useful. They actually told a story that was about health.

[Theodore]

Even if you meant it as humorous, some people are going to agree with the statement.

I think the problem is that "fat" is often used to stand for a whole host of things that have nothing to do with weight. After all, the fat acceptance movement uses the word fat. Unfortunately, "fat" is also used to mean lazy, undisciplined, and self-indulgent - when people who are fat might be none of those things.

Dr. McDougall often refers to people as "fat and sick." I was thinking about what would have happened if he had called it "the sick vegan." That would be just as accurate - more so, in my opinion, as I know plenty of thin people who eat nothing but junk. I know they aren't healthy. They just don't gain weight. But people care more about weight than health.

That's why those pictures of people's colons that were posted here were so useful. They actually told a story that was about health.

Well I've read that article several times and I sense nothing but tough love and compassion in Dr M's words. And no amount of junkfood industry (or junkfood vegan) propaganda is gonna change that.

[BlueHeron]

Even if you meant it as humorous, some people are going to agree with the statement.

I think the problem is that "fat" is often used to stand for a whole host of things that have nothing to do with weight. After all, the fat acceptance movement uses the word fat. Unfortunately, "fat" is also used to mean lazy, undisciplined, and self-indulgent - when people who are fat might be none of those things.

Dr. McDougall often refers to people as "fat and sick." I was thinking about what would have happened if he had called it "the sick vegan." That would be just as accurate - more so, in my opinion, as I know plenty of thin people who eat nothing but junk. I know they aren't healthy. They just don't gain weight. But people care more about weight than health.

That's why those pictures of people's colons that were posted here were so useful. They actually told a story that was about health.

Well I've read that article several times and I sense nothing but tough love and compassion in Dr M's words. And no amount of junkfood industry (or junkfood vegan) propaganda is gonna change that.

This is obviously not my day to express myself well. I don't question Dr. McDougall's compassion even when I'm not crazy about his wording. I absolutely believe he is doing what he believes will be the most helpful to people who are hurting.

[Thrasymachus]

The vegan community has found over its history that those interested in plant foods just out of touted health benefits easily exit the paradigm, because other diets tout health benefits, and because when things get hard, they will just adopt those other diets.

I'm aware of the claim, but I'm not aware of any evidence to back it up.

Well, I am not your or anyone's research nanny, but on page of 2 of this thread, Norm makes the false assumption that Paleo fadists can follow the McDougall diet easier than vegans. There is lots of evidence that many members here are similarly shopping around and they could jump to some carbohydrate starvation, meat based fad diet since the dominant fixation seems to be the Battle at the Bulge and touted health benefits over here. And McDougall is not the only one making those claims, infact those with the least results paradoxically seem to make such claims the loudest and win that aspect of the game.

However as someone observed in the is Obesity a choice thread:

... For me, obesity was the result of faulty information.

...

The obese get faulty information from "experts," ...

So for one of the few ethical vegans who are fat or unhealthy, where will they go? Since they will abstain from flesh and dairy, there are only a few experts advocating healthy plant based diets: Neil Barnard, Dr. McDougall, Joel Fuhrman, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, etc. And where will the typical American go? South Beach diet, Paleo diet, Atkins, Zone Diet, etc. That is also where people who go on the McDougall diet, but who lack discipline and burn out will tend to go. They will fall into the ready arms of those advocating dangerous unhealthy diets with even more animal protein:

Low Carb vs. Plant-Based Diet
... as I have said before, people like to hear good news about their bad habits ...

What I write is eerily similar to this:

Cutting Food Costs in These Times of Economic Downturn
... Over the past 35 years I have encouraged people to eat a starch-based diet—few have listened. ...

I'm not entirely sure of the point that you're making here, but just out of interest, what do you suppose it is that makes people so anti-vegan ?

As Charles Eisenstein observed the foundation of our society is that we are discrete and separate beings, apart from each other and nature. Thus we feel insecure about our place in the world and seek to make as much of the world "me, mine", as that is the only way we can feel secure. A society based on domination and blood, does not want to see below the surface of its facade. The vegan and larger animal liberation movement confronts people with what they do want to see. People want to remain discrete, separate and claim as much as the world for themselves as they can. Eating meat is the best way to do this in terms of diet, there is no way you can waste more resources to raise food and for health care, than by getting 40% or greater calories from animal sources.

[Norm]

Well, I am not your or anyone's research nanny,

I'd be content if you were at least your own research nanny. Read on:

but on page of 2 of this thread, Norm makes the false assumption that Paleo fadists can follow the McDougall diet easier than vegans.

I made no such assumption. I wasn't talking about Paleo Fadists trying to follow the McDougall Diet, I was talking about >ME< following the McDougall Diet and that I know Paleo followers who could provide me with an acceptable meal easier than some high-fat/processed-food vegans I know. Your twisting of my words to squeeze me into a box that fits your agenda show just what kind of "research" you favor.

There is lots of evidence that many members here are similarly shopping around and they could jump to some carbohydrate starvation, meat based fad diet since the dominant fixation seems to be the Battle at the Bulge and touted health benefits over here. And McDougall is not the only one making those claims, infact those with the least results paradoxically seem to make such claims the loudest and win that aspect of the game.

Yup. You sure got me pegged. Shopping around, trying every fad diet that comes along, and of course everyone here knows I talk so loudly to cover up the fact that I haven't had any real success on this diet, or any of the other dozen I've tried over the past week. Ignore my weight chart below.... ignore the pictures on my journal thread. They're all made up!

You know what irks me? Seems like any time someone uses a phrase like "I don't wanna be your research nanny, but...." that the "but" is almost always followed by the worst example of research possible.

-Norm

[Thrasymachus]

That does not smell right to me. Infact it is a tactic the wannabe cavemen use: all of them used to be vegans and if not that, they know failed vegans, or their wife is one. One of them even said they went to a McDougall retreat, which I highly doubt until I see confirmation. Where does one even meet so many vegans? They are only about 1-2% of the population and most people from my experience, since I identify as such, cannot even understand the concept when explained to them. I don't even meet other vegans. So I wonder how you can meet all these vegans and paleo followers too.

The cavemen fadists have idiotic ideas like putting butter in everything since cholesterol is good, they also use oils. My brother has fallen into their wings and has taken up the bad habit of putting butter into coffee. and he has started cooking with duck fat because it good... It is much easier to explain to any vegan what processed plant foods to exclude than to people who choose a diet that confirms their selection bias for meat and high-fat. Again as I said before, the McDougall followers here often have ideas contrary to McDougall, who thinks the neanderthal wannabes are something to write and warn against:
The Paleo Diet Is Uncivilized (And Unhealthy and Untrue)

[Norm]

Where does one even meet so many vegans? They are only about 1-2% of the population and most people from my experience, since I identify as such, cannot even understand the concept when explained to them. I don't even meet other vegans. So I wonder how you can meet all these vegans and paleo followers too.

I've known probably a dozen vegans over the years, including the ones I know now. All of them ate/eat an abundance of overly processed foods and junk foods. Fake meats, lots of oil, lots of sweets. I know several people currently who eat like I do but do not consider themselves vegans. And I know two people who call themselves paleo.
I can only speak to my own experience, and in my experience my paleo friends could serve me up a meal I'd gladly eat from the food they keep on hand, while I'm not sure my vegan friends could.
I'm sorry this smells funny to you. But it's apparent, that even with my limited sampling of people and experiences to draw from, that they handily exceed your own.

So perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt and accept that I'm telling you the truth, rather than imply that I'm lying about it because I'm a Closet Caveman or something.

-Norm

[janluvs2heel]

Where does one even meet so many vegans? They are only about 1-2% of the population and most people from my experience, since I identify as such, cannot even understand the concept when explained to them. I don't even meet other vegans. So I wonder how you can meet all these vegans and paleo followers too.

I've known probably a dozen vegans over the years, including the ones I know now. All of them ate/eat an abundance of overly processed foods and junk foods. Fake meats, lots of oil, lots of sweets. I know several people currently who eat like I do but do not consider themselves vegans. And I know two people who call themselves paleo.
I can only speak to my own experience, and in my experience my paleo friends could serve me up a meal I'd gladly eat from the food they keep on hand, while I'm not sure my vegan friends could.
I'm sorry this smells funny to you. But it's apparent, that even with my limited sampling of people and experiences to draw from, that they handily exceed your own.

So perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt and accept that I'm telling you the truth, rather than imply that I'm lying about it because I'm a Closet Caveman or something.

-Norm

Norm, dont you live in the Pacific Northwest? Aren't there more "vegans" there, it seems like at least in Oregon, it is much more vegan friendly with restaurants, etc. I have to say, I am thinking really hard but I can only think of a few people who I know are real vegans. I think it is because I dont tend to talk about my diet or theirs that much, it just does not come up.

No, Norm is not a closet Caveman or lying. I can say that with 100% conviction!!

Happy New Year, Norm!!

[JohnLarson]

The word "Vegan" comes from cavemen times. It means poor hunter.



I guess I am a bit of a closet caveman. I like the outdoors. I like building big fires. I think there is something in men to be cavemanish. Like Tim Allen on home improvement.

I was told about a term, low to the ground. I have not read too much about it and do not know the whole concept, but could relate. I think eating McDougall is different than eating vegan. The fact that some vegans eat potato chips, fried food, white bread and drink soft drinks. There is a reason that Dr. McDougall does not wish to be labeled a vegan. I am guessing there are parts of the cavemen faddists that understand eating low to the ground and eating whole foods. That is just a guess. I have not meet any of them. The Adkins people I know are no longer eating that way and have gained their weight back. I still watch them attempt to eat the Adkins way. It is funny.

In my family, I was getting grief about this WOE from a vegetarian. She does not eat healthy at all. I think she is more of an ethical vegetarian, I am not real sure. Before coming to this web site and watching what she eats, I did not know vegetarians ate dairy or eggs. I thought vegetarians were about eating and vegans were about animal rights. I guess some vegetarians eat fish and some even eat chicken.

Given the choice of being called a caveman or a vegan, I will take caveman. Closet or not.

[Debbie]

I wonder if paleo people get offended/upset if they are called low carb and vice versa. Just as Im sure there are ethical vegans (doing it only for the animals) don't want to be called plant based/McDougaller or any other term not vegan.

I have a friend of facebook who is an ethical vegan. She reversed some health issues by going vegan but is still very very sick. She hasn't made public what is wrong with her, but she has been house bound for months. Her only wish for 2013 is to be healthy, but does NOT want any comments on how to do it or anything. She's super sweet but when someone said plant based on her feed, she got a little upset, she just said she was vegan. Her only motivation is for animal welfare.

[Theodore]

"Vegan" is a made-up word with no etymology. It's like "Enron," "Plaxo," and other brand names that have only the most tenuous root to their subject matter.

Yeah, apparently the word came about by taking the first three letters of the word "vegetarian" plus the last two letters, and putting them together to form the word "vegan". I believe the word was coined in the 1940's by Donald Watson. A man who spent most of his life trying to reform the vegetarian movement and with much success, IMO.

Apparently his efforts to reform the Shirley Barrett fan club were less well received, lol.