The word "vegan"

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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Salley » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:09 pm

JeffN wrote:an unhealthy choice should not be rationalized in a discussion of health as being a healthy choice just because it is vegan. Label it what is it. Don't say, "at least it was vegan, say "I ate some pure unhealthy junk food that was vegan."


I've actually reached the point where rather than call it pure unhealthy junk food I just don't even call it food anymore... there are hundreds of uses for olive oil for example, but food isn't one of them, why eat something unhealthy anyway? I'm definitely a fan of calling food what it is though... I like to do this with my kids especially, so if I'm making a recipe or even giving them something that comes in a package I try to just tell them all the ingredients. It can be all too easy to lose the details in a generalized term... whether it's 'vegan' or 'bread', so I don't want my kids thinking 'bread' is automatically healthy food because that can encompass so many more not healthy ingredients besides whole grains, water, and yeast creating confusion.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby TerriT » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:54 am

Debbie wrote:
Theodore wrote:Some people here simply do not want to be associated with the rather large number of preachy, grease-fuelled cupcake pushers who currently populate the vegan movement.


Im just not seeing the offensive in this. Unless I guess it towards the fat people movement pushing cupcakes.

I think maybe we're reading too much into this. Its often been said that anyone can find something to be offended about. That seems true here too. Ive been guilty of that a time or two as well. We can find offense in everything if we're looking to be offended.


I don't really see that this is offensive either. No one here is pushing greasy vegan cupcakes on other people, are they? For me the only way I can see this as possibly offensive is if I were to consider it a misrepresentation of the vegan movement, and whether or not a "rather large number" of people who identify as vegans are pushing greasy cupcakes on other people. Then I'd have to figure out what constitutes a "rather large number". And even so, the idea of some (large or small number of) vegans promoting greasy cupcakes just strikes me as funny, not offensive.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby veggylvr » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:43 am

I think any large group is going to have its separate factions, especially with something as personal as food. Even here, among McDougallers, there's a lot of diversity in what people consume and believe. Some still eat a bit of animal products. Some allow more oil or fat. Others eat more nuts or take supplements.

IMO, the population encompassed by the term "vegan" is no different. Some eat cupcakes and junk food; others eat very healthy whole food. Some are adament about not using any animal products; others not so much.

The controversy among this group is the same as it is among McDougallers...or any group, really...there will always be those who believe others don't have the "right" to be included.

We see it here all the time. "You're not following the plan!" The implication being that you have no right to call yourself a McDougaller if you're not perfectly on plan.

I'm a vegan. My diet is fully vegan now, so I have no hesitation using that term. Other vegans may dislike certain exceptions I make in other areas of my lifestyle that they feel must be included for me to use that description...for me to belong to their exclusive club...but I disagree. They don't own the term "vegan" and they have no right to dictate its usage. If the majority of people understand what I mean when I say "vegan" then it's an entirely appropriate term to use in social situations.

Is it completely explanatory of my diet? No. But neither is a lot of other terms I use - my political party, for instance. It doesn't fully define all my political views, and I hate that it links me with certain crazies, but that's just the way it is. People who wish to purify terms to only include others who absolutely, without deviation, believe and function the way they do are fighting a losing battle.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:02 am

TerriT wrote:
Debbie wrote:
Theodore wrote:Some people here simply do not want to be associated with the rather large number of preachy, grease-fuelled cupcake pushers who currently populate the vegan movement.


Im just not seeing the offensive in this. Unless I guess it towards the fat people movement pushing cupcakes.

I think maybe we're reading too much into this. Its often been said that anyone can find something to be offended about. That seems true here too. Ive been guilty of that a time or two as well. We can find offense in everything if we're looking to be offended.


I don't really see that this is offensive either. No one here is pushing greasy vegan cupcakes on other people, are they? For me the only way I can see this as possibly offensive is if I were to consider it a misrepresentation of the vegan movement, and whether or not a "rather large number" of people who identify as vegans are pushing greasy cupcakes on other people. Then I'd have to figure out what constitutes a "rather large number". And even so, the idea of some (large or small number of) vegans promoting greasy cupcakes just strikes me as funny, not offensive.


Um, yeah. Offensive things aren't offensive to everyone, i.e. people doing the offending or sticking up for the offenders. I would agree that I may be too sensitive if you would agree you may be insensitive.

Words like preachy and greasy are not meant to offend? Come on! I don't buy that for one minute.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Debbie » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:58 am

Lesliec1 wrote:
Um, yeah. Offensive things aren't offensive to everyone, i.e. people doing the offending or sticking up for the offenders. I would agree that I may be too sensitive if you would agree you may be insensitive.

Words like preachy and greasy are not meant to offend? Come on! I don't buy that for one minute.

Hmm, I didnt think I was "sticking up for the offenders". I dont see the offensive. I also dont believe I am insensitive. The heart I wear on my sleeve tells me otherwise. Although Im sure I could be insensitive at times. I cry easily. Ive been around here for over 6 years. It has taken me probably 5 to get over being overly sensitive to every comment that I think is insensitive or even directed at me. I have logged off of here and cried at comments that were hurtful. I got over it.

I have been preachy, and been told I was. I was not offended and it was not meant to offend. And Ive been "greasy" and was not offended, except I didnt really like being greasy ;-) .

Ive seen other threads where comments were taken as offensive, although no one else thought so. Any word or wording can be taken as offensive. I can think of lots of them that are used in daily life, but on sterile type, like here, they could be very offensive.

I think some people really look for the offensive in everything. And I guess that is okay, if they like being on edge all the time. :)
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:48 pm

Debbie wrote:I dont see the offensive.


Oh well, I can't help you with that then. But if you go around calling people preachy or greasy, I'll have to stand by calling you insensitive.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby veggylvr » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:09 pm

I thought the comment was merely about vegans who eat oily food ("greasy") and junk food ("cupcakes"). I didn't see it as offensive to anyone here, as that's obviously not how we eat. I understood the point that some don't want to call themselves "vegan" for fear of being associated with that type of junk food vegan.

I'll have to scroll back, but I didn't think Debbie even made that comment.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Jordy Verrill » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:13 pm

Salley wrote:
Jordy Verrill wrote:I don't understand why anyone feels the need to put a label on the food that they eat unless they have some type of agenda.


So what sort of agenda do you think is behind the items labelled vegan, like the McDougall foods, in the grocery store exactly? Also, what sort of agenda do you suppose the people that see what I'm eating and say, "oh, I see you eat vegan" have? When people label a meal at a potluck 'vegan', what sort of agenda do you believe they had in mind? Personally I have never met anyone that called food vegan to have any sort of agenda besides one of greater clarity... on the other hand I have known some to specifically label their foods as dairy free, egg free vegetarian rather than the commonly used vegan term to identify the same thing with an agenda in mind, specifically to avoid scaring off closed-minded folks.


Many, or most, vegans feel a sense of superiority because of what they do and don't eat and they are the type of person who lets it be known to everyone about how they eat, whether they care or not.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Wild4Stars » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:27 pm

Many vegans only accept perfection. My path is one of progress, not perfection. PLUS - most vegans could not and do not eat by the McDougall plan. Why would I want to associate myself with being a vegan when the way I eat is SO MUCH MORE !! I watched a vegan cooking show on TV today and wished I owned stock in olive oil. Every dish started with it and ended with it. Find that somewhere on the McDougall plan. I know many vegans that don't come close to eating by McDougall.

I'm sure there are some people ( I know a couple who post on these boards) that are both vegans AND McDougallers. I don't think that is the majority of us.

I think we have beaten this horse to death. We need to agree to disagree and move on to a more productive conversation.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby nicoles » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:51 pm

Wow. I just read through this whole thread. It is endlessly fascinating to me how contentious the issue of food and diet is.

You certainly can't please everyone.

Where we live (Los Angeles) being considered vegan is almost a status symbol, and so is being "plant-based" - in certain circles at least. So, many people are threatened or feel judged by me and my husband because of how we eat and how they feel they should eat, but do not.

A lot of people I know locally call themselves vegan, but really are not - they sometimes eat meat and dairy and fish and wear leather, and so on. A few people I know say they are practically vegetarian, even though meat is featured in at least 2, if not 3 of their meals a day. I mean, sure, they would be vegetarian - if they stopped eating meat!! A fine distinction so many seem to miss. Not sure why, but probably because they want to be known as vegan or vegetarian.

I have been judged both in my dietary choices and my labeling (or lack of labeling) of them by vegans, vegetarians and SAD-eaters alike. I know some vegans who are annoyingly preachy about their food choices, and I know some SAD-eaters who are downright bullying in their attitude and approach towards people (OK, me :lol: ) who do not eat meat or animal products.

My FIL, a new McDougaller after a recent heart attack, calls how he eats now Vay-gun (vegan ;) ) for him, vegan simply means "eats no animal products" and he knows it conveys that message more simply than anything else.

I tend to skirt the issue. I have a medical condition that I am using diet to treat, and I started out going the medical route in explaining my eating choices (as in"Special diet for my condition." I did this mostly to get people to mind their own business a little, because EVERYONE had a BIG OPINION about what I was doing, and being sick was enough to deal with.) Even still, everyone I know labels me a vegan anyway.

My husband, who eventually came to eat this way, quite actively works to educate people about this WOE any chance he gets - especially when someone asks him about his diet or how he lost weight. He does not call himself vegan, because he is not opposed to the idea of eating animals; rather he goes into a long explanation of what he is doing and why, which is primarily motivated by personal health, but also factory farming conditions, which he IS very much against. He also will very occasionally eat some meat or dairy, but this is maybe once a year, in a situation where he has nothing else to eat, so he does not feel qualified to call himself vegan, out of respect for ethical vegans. Still, everyone he knows calls him a vegan anyway.

I can understand why people do not feel like calling how they eat vegan, especially if surrounded by people who are prejudiced against the idea. I also think anyone has the right to label or not label how they eat as they prefer. Like I said in the beginning of this post, food and dietary choices are a highly contentious subject, and can cause great disharmony.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:35 pm

veggylvr wrote:I thought the comment was merely about vegans who eat oily food ("greasy") and junk food ("cupcakes"). I didn't see it as offensive to anyone here, as that's obviously not how we eat. I understood the point that some don't want to call themselves "vegan" for fear of being associated with that type of junk food vegan.


So I can say I don't mean to offend black people if I'm merely talking about the "watermelon-eating type of black people"? Why should that offend anyone? Or I'm only referring to the "backwoods racist type of republican"? That's not offensive because I don't mean ALL republicans of course. Or how about that fat people seem "lazy, and disgusting" although not ALL fat people so I can say that. Is that all OK?

And I never said it's offensive to anyone HERE. What does that matter? Why do people have to trash a whole group of people, as if eating greasy food makes you a horrible person? Didn't your parents ever tell you to choose your words?
Last edited by Lesliec1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:42 pm

Jordy Verrill wrote:Many, or most, vegans feel a sense of superiority because of what they do and don't eat and they are the type of person who lets it be known to everyone about how they eat, whether they care or not.


Are we supposed to believe that you know "many" vegans? Isn't that really what a bigot is? Someone who generalizes about a whole group of people?
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby f1jim » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:51 pm

Here is the exact quote:
3) Some people here simply do not want to be associated with the rather large number of preachy, grease-fuelled cupcake-pushers who currently populate the vegan movement.

I may be simplistic but that comment is not an attack on vegans. It's an attack on the diet chosen by some vegans. I can't in good conscience relate that to the other comments made previously. It's a realistic portrayal of the diet quite a few self proclaimed vegans choose. It isn't a reflection of any innate qualities of their humanity. It's a critique of their diet and the means some of them choose to express their chosen lifestyle. I dare say that view of many vegans has been accurately expressed by a large number of members here and more than a few have chimed in that is how they viewed themselves earlier in their dietary history. I can see the descriptions being negative but nothing more. Feel free to message me why I may be wrong and I'll promise to try to understand. It does tell us this word "vegan" carries a lot of underlying messages with it, both good and bad.
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby Lesliec1 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:54 pm

f1jim wrote:I may be simplistic but that comment is not an attack on vegans.
f1jim


Really? "preachy"?
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Re: The word "vegan"

Postby f1jim » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:08 pm

Yes, preachy. I have found myself guilty of that characterization myself. Around sickly family and friends I can get a bit preachy. I have to reign that in from time to time. It's not a vegan thing, per se, but it's a personality thing many of us struggle with.
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