Groundhog~Dr.McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff....??

[sojourner]

Could it be possible (again...I'm NOT siding with ANYONE at this point) that both Atkins extremists AND doctors like McDougall/Ornish see results because they frown on flour/ baked stuff???? Could that be one uniting factor present in both that's important enough to health that cuases the confusion of people in both extremes getting better?????? ....

Hi groundhog,
I saw at another place on the board what you said about Dr. McDougall frowning on flour and baked stuff.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... highlight= . I didn't want my question to you to get lost in that long list of posts so I moved my question to a new post for you here.

Will you please cite references to where Dr. McDougall "frowns on flour/baked stuff"? I want to read about that and find out why Dr. McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff. I didn't know that about his program. What you said is disturbing and confusing to read and I want to understand why he has changed this major part of his program.

[xetaprime]

Hi sojourner,

I'm not sure about the flour idea. I'm inclined to believe that they and others work initially because there's a sudden diet shift away from processed foods in general. I think this alone would show health benefits short term.

When I was on Atkins I wasn't thinking that long term high protein could be a problem. I've changed my stance on this now. Even Dr. Eades has said in his blog recently that in converting protein, the body has to work extra hard at it. Maybe this could work for short term weight loss goals, but long term???

It makes me think of the candle burning twice as bright burns half as long.

Best wishes,
Xeta

[boardn10]

Maybe because flour is basically a processed food. However, I do eat whole grain and brown rice cereals and pastas. I also try to eat a lot of cereals, breads, etc that are not made with flour, puffed rice and other grains are good examples.

[Clary]

I, too, wonder where Groundhogg got her information that Dr. McDougall "frowns on the use of flour and baked stuff"?

I also wonder about groundhogg's question implying it could be because flour and baked goods are not part of the McDougall program is why Dr. McDougall's program results in "people... getting better".

Has Dr. McDougall changed his program? Has he eliminated flour and baked goods from his program? Are all those recipes in his books and cookbooks using flours and making baked items no longer part of the McDougall program? No more pasta-spaghetti-noodles-lasagna, seitan dishes, chips, pie crusts, bread pudding, macaroni and "cheese", pancakes, breads, quick breads, pita bread, fruit bars, apple crisp, cobblers, cakes, kuchens, cookies, muffins, cinnamon buns, ...? .

I am distressed by the information Groundhogg posted about Dr. McDougall frowning on flour and baked goods, and I, too, would appreciate references to where she acquired her information so I can read for myself what she is using to conclude that Dr. McDougall frowns on the use of flour and baked goods in his program.

Part of why I chose Dr. McDougall's program over some others is because I decided I (and my grandsons) could eat from recipes closer to what we were used to by using Dr. McDougall's recipes, which I understood could include flours as well as many choices from delicious McDougalled no-added-oil baked items.

Maybe others considered that in their choices, too.

We have so many new people joining the board and the program at this time of the year, that I think it is important to clear this up on the board.

[Yoga Nurse]

Hi Clary,
I certainly don't see where Dr. McDougall says this and I believe this is a misrepresentation of his work. In the maximum weight loss program he outlines his reasons not to use flour- for that program only, but still doesn't eliminate baked goods.

I think it's important to stay true to the facts regarding Dr. McDougall's recommendations. He bases his results on good science, not on a lot of speculation. Thanks, Clary, for bringing this to our attention.

Anna

[Clary]

Hi Clary,
I certainly don't see where Dr. McDougall says this and I believe this is a misrepresentation of his work. In the maximum weight loss program he outlines his reasons not to use flour- for that program only, but still doesn't eliminate baked goods.

I think it's important to stay true to the facts regarding Dr. McDougall's recommendations. He bases his results on good science, not on a lot of speculation. Thanks, Clary, for bringing this to our attention.

Anna

Hi Anna--

I'm glad for your response. Thank you. I think it is a good thing that sojourner brought up the question, because if one person asks about something that usually means that a certain percentage of others are wondering the same thing.

I really hesitated to post anything at all in the thread, not wanting to be part of a possible brouhaha , but felt even more uncomfortable not responding. I've edited my post several times, trying to be clear and concise, and hoping the questions that have been asked in the thread will be taken at face value, and everything will be quickly cleared up.

[groundhogg]

Sorry, I didn't mean to create confusion.

McDougall's plans are divided into the regular (often called 12-day, but it's a lifetime thing, not just 12 days) plan, which does include flours made from whole grains...and then the MWL (maximum weight loss), which omits flours, and utilizes any grains in their natural state, i.e., not ground up into fine powders/particles.

Some people follow one specific plan or another, many kinda go back and forth, etc., doing what works best for them.

I've read in recent newsletters (can't point to them specifically...sorry...just going by memory) that his program in California now pretty much sticks with MWL, as he has found it more successfull in general than the regular one that allows flours and more bready, sugary, etc. things.

I was quickly referring to this idea as I've read in McDougall writings while thinking about lots of other stuff...and sorry if I confused anyone.

I hope I was able to clarify that..???? Was I????

[groundhogg]

To reiterate, if I can quote myself here, this is my whole point in this thread and from my watching the debate and reading the Taubes' book...

...not that I'm embracing Atkins, etc. NO...in case anyone wonders if I've completely gone mad...no..

my whole point is wondering WHAT humans SHOULD eat...HOW indigneous cultures learned that, their total diets, and how science has attempted to redefine it for modern day, more intellectually-based cultures... here's my quote which summarizes my thinking...

This is how Osawa came to observe that some foods, or types of foods, seem to be necessary to balance out the other foods...and indigenous cultures had this down to the point where they were healthy eating combinations, with the seasons, of what foods were right there in their environment for them. Civilizied societies completely lost track of this, and even modern day macrobiotics, in my own opinion, has lost sight of this delicate balance.

And I'm just reasoning out stuff in these threads, hoping to share thoughts and get feedback from others' THOUGHTS... not trying to confuse people, etc. This is why I posted on the LOUNGE... conversation...just thinking... that's all. Nothing more. I can't wait to find the time to cross-reference the origins of common nutritional beliefs, the studies they are based on...etc. Taubes' has put this idea into my head...like going further back into the history of the origins of the ideas... years ago, Osawa wrote of surprisingly similar observations and then formultated the early Macrobiotics ideas, which, in my humble opinion, were completely screwed up by Michio Kushi et al.

This is purely thinking, conversation... like discussing a Dostoevsky novel or something with a bunch of friends...that's it. Or, we could just discuss Dostoevsky instead I tried to read it in the old Russian one time... Brothers Karamzov...MAN that was HARD!!!! I slowly, excruciatingly got to page 100 or so...and then realized I was practicing nothing more than straightout masochism .

[Yoga Nurse]

It was explained on another thread, by a participant, that while Dr. McDougall does offer MWL options at his live-in program, he does not base the program on that. And the MWL program does not limit grains- it just offers them in a less processed form. So I must disagree.

As far as Mr. Taubes goes, his musings are based on a very shaky platform. I don't think most of us here can (I certainly can't) in all honesty afford him the status that true medical researchers such as our Dr. McDougall as well as Colin Campbell, Dr. Ornish and others have earned. Research must be looked at deeply, thoroughly, and honestly. Not all research is of the same quality or caliber. This discernment, based on objective guidelines, is something that is taught to healthcare professionals, though is certainly not out of the reach of anyone sincerely looking for the truth.

As far as the musings of participants of this forum, we should still be careful to base our thoughts and reflections on what is actually true of the people we are indirectly quoting, not on what we would like to think someone said.

Of course anyone can say anything they like. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But as Daniel Moynihan says, we are not entitled to our own facts.

[groundhogg]

You must disagree? Didn't I say the difference between 12-day and MWL was 12 day allows grains processed into flour, while MWL allows them only in their natural, unground state? I'm sure that's correct.

As far as Taubes goes...I know nothing about him. I never heard of him until someone was talking about him, somewhere, can't remember where now...just a few weeks ago... I became curious, read a few Amazon reviews and decided I should read his book. Have you read his book, Yoga Nurse? Because I woulnd't dismiss it as unscientific, if I were you, rather, a history of the science, how and why things were studied from point a to point b...going back a few hundred years, where we are now with our thoughts, etc. I have heard he previously wrote an essay that shook up the world of epidemiology too... epidemiologists apparently took notice of his assessment of just how scientific their methods are.

I'm not siding with him... I like to read all types of opinions to think about many things for myself...soemtimes even things seemingly not entirely related to the ideas I'm reading about... you know, just the entire thought process and all of that.

I'm not saying anything bad about Ornish, McDougall (didn't I say I thought Ornish performed and seemed much better prepared for the youtube debate????), or any of that... I'm jsut saying that Taubes' book literally shakes the foundations of most nutritional research, especially concerning obesity... whether the research is still right, or whether the research is not right... I don't know, myself, not having been overweight by more than a few lbs. at times. Still...as I've said... I think it's useful to read things coming from outside the lines... think about things.... how it relates to other things...

regardless of the roles of fats, proteins, calories, carbohydrates, or whatever.... my primary personal motivation that got me reading more stuff was in wondering (not believing...WONDERING!) about the history of the role of grains, all grains, in human eating patterns. I wonder (there's that word again, as opposed to BELIEVE) if grains became a necessity because of food shortages... i.e., they store well and are filling, etc. ... and then early cultures somehow knew how to balance the anti-nutrients and / or potential problems (gluten would be one potential problem) of their culture's grains by combining other foods that counteracted these things. This was even further sparked by my running across a Jeff Novick (McDougall's new guy) quote in which he said he thought 'grains" (didn't specify what grains) were a recent addition to the human diet and were addictive... he'd seen in many people better health without them and he himself could not get over his seasonal allergies until he dropped all grains from his own diet...although this was a quote of 10 years ago...it did capture my attention, coming from McDougall's nutritionist now on baord...that he either thinks this or at least once did think it. This is why George Osawa's writings are comign to mind as I read through Taubes' historical presentation of the development of nutritional science...it's all related. I wonder (again...not believe) if cultures' unique health issues could possibly be related to their choices in dominant grains, either as well as, or in addition to other foods they regularly eat... and I also wonder if our more intellectually-based civilizations have attempted, through nutritional science and investigation, to micromanage nutrients, which may have caused all the apparent inconsistencies we see around us concerning how foods affect different cultures and even individuals.

I have trouble understanding how I seem to be the only one who ever wonders about things?????

I guess soliloquy is the safest route to take... not conversation.... people are very quick to assume they know what another person's experience of the world is... or something... Idunno.... I guess I should jsut keep my thinking to myself.

[DianeR]

Those interested in this subject may wish to read what Mr. Novick (as Groundhogg puts it "McDougall's new guy") recently said about flour, versus the whole grain itself.
http://www.jeffnovick.com/component/opt ... ,342/id,8/

Compare http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl/oct/sugar.htm

I don't happen to know what Ornish, Esselstyn, Fuhrman, Campbell et al. have said on the subject. Anyone?

[Yoga Nurse]

Groundhogg-

I realize that you have had problems with wheat and other gluten containing grains. I respect that you chose to eliminate them from your diet and found relief. I respect your inquiring spirit.

But in reply to your message, I also wonder about things. You are not alone in that. That's what brought me to McDougall and that's what healed me from RA (I was very ill and found relief- actually what I consider a cure.) None of us can know another's full experience, even if we were to live with that person. I cannot not fully appreciate my husband's experience, though I try.

I have not read Taubes book, and do not plan to. I have read articles he's written for the Times and have watched the video where he debates Ornish and others. I was less than impressed. In fact I was appalled by his attitude. I don't have time now to go into more detail regarding his statements. I'm just surprised that you would spend this much time on his book, while dismissing Campbell's book after spending only an hour or so with it. (Or did I misunderstand your previous posts in that regard?) Perhaps you intend to go back to it and read it more thoroughly?

I just want to be very clear that Dr. McDougall doesn't omit grains- ground up or not. And I am unaware of anywhere that he says that omitting them produces better results. If I'm wrong, please let me know. (Unless you are talking only about weight loss. Then he does say that weight loss will be enhanced by eating the whole grain, rather than that grain ground up.) I wasn't thinking specifically about weight loss, but more about health benefits in general. I have never had a weight issue, so this is not my area of personal expertise. I will say though, that many here, by their own report, have lost significant amounts of weight while eating according to the "regular" 12 day plan.

If you prefer a monologue, (or a soliloquy as you state) that's fine. I think the nature of this forum invites discussion, and often the responses are different than we would like. If you don't want a response, please let me know and I will honor that.

Anna

[groundhogg]

Just to reiterate again what I said...

I never said McDougall does not include grains, but that he has written somewhat recently (sorry, I don't have when or where that was) that he found MWL better and has switched his clinics to mainly that.

It was Jeff Novick who said the stuff about "grains," nearly verbatim as I have stated above. This confuses me, especially in light of how my body has reacted to previously basing most of my calories on grains.

I feel very frustrated when someone misquotes or misconstrues things I say repeatedly...

I don't pay much attention to a person's apparent personality in public debate...rather, more to the gist of what they've studied, their ideas or whatever. Some of the world's most profound thinkers and researcher, sceintists and inventors have happened to have had crappy personalities...and besides, I don't believe one's true personality may always be apparent when they are in a situation in which they may feel on display, on defense, on attack or however uncomfortable...I just don't normally judge on those things, as much as the content of what they are saying and how they came to say it or think it. Otherwise, the vegtalk session in which Dr. McDougall was interviewed would have been a big turnoff to me... I overlooked it, feeling sometimes people are pushed into a public speaking situation for which they just aren't quite ready to deal with at that moment. I think we all know this is true.

Yes, Campbell's book was a quick read for me... I read 200-300 pages per hour, normally. However...the Taubes book reads slowly, and if you ever do decide for yourself to have a look at it, you'll see why. It reads like a college text. I found some things that, once they settled and cooked a while in my mind, didn't quite jive to my satisfaction throughout Campbell's book... I kept his book... and I plan...to reiterate again, to have a look at his references/sources... compare some ideas cookin' in my head now with other sources from Taubes... compare that with some other things I've read in the past ... and do some serious thinking about Georges Osawa's early observations about BALANCE... I'm thinking... balance is a key factor in civilizations' particular diets... for instance.... the rice eaters get beri beri.... corn eaters get pellagra... I'm just wondering what factors early cultures somehow knew balanced this out.

Many cultures have used tobacco... without harm...some hunter/gatherers still do... what might have balanced this... or by even removing the indigenous use of tobacco (not the corporates' use we know today), what disease may have occurred??? For example... there are people on the net on various message boards that didn't get Crohn's or ulcerative colitis until they stopped smoking. Some ulcerative colits patients have resorted to either smoking again or using nicotine patch to alleviate the condition...and many celiacs say they did not have celiac symptoms until they stopped smoking. So, before someone comes back and says groundhog says to smoke...no...I don't say that. I say balancing chemicals in our foods and our bodies is a lost art among indigenous cultures... and nutritional science, with its many stumbling blocks (as Gary Taubes' book nicely points out), have micromanaged and we are left with a lot of confusion.

I find these things fascinating... not threatening.

[Quiet Heather]

I'm finding this discussion fascinating. I admit that I'm already biased against Taubes' book, but it does sound like an interesting read.

[susie]

I finally got around to reading my copy of the 12 day Diet and he does say that flours can be a problem. this is mainly because the flour is processed and it has different values to the original grain it comes from. Seeing this book was published in the 80s he has not changed his views much at all.

He definitely does not like white flour products.