Groundhog~Dr.McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff....??

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Postby Hazel » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:33 am

Interesting discussion. I've been to the 10 day program in Santa Rosa and we didn't follow the MWL plan, we ate more processed foods including pasta, bread, muffins, tortillas, etc and some higher fat items using tofu and cashews during those days as well as all the wonderful fruits, veggies, and beans.
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Postby groundhogg » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:53 am

Quiet Heather...

I am so GLAD :-P to hear someone finds it fascinating, as I do, rather than annoying or somehow insulting, as I FEAR I may have caused in some others here...not my intention.

My intention is to find out stuff...that's it, only.

I used to think we were all pretty much the same, and what worked perfectly for many or most people should be okay for just about everybody else...now, though I question that notion, and wonder just how cultures, traditions, etc., in the past got their wisdom for knowing what to eat, with what, when, etc. It seems we have lost that...and no matter how hard we try, true scientific proof of anything seems elusive...humans really have trouble being objective...we all do, even scientists and researchers.

As you said...you already are feeling biased against Taubes...me too, really, because it's obvious that he leans toward Atkins, himself. I believe this came to him during his research for this subject. Likewise, T. Colin Campbell says he became vegan due to his own research. There ya go... two extremes because of what they both found in the research...and I doubt either of the two would purposely put their health in danger by eating something other than what their researches led them to believe!!!!

How's that fer confusion???? :P

I guess more and more I feel strongly driven to compare these two guys...seek out stuff, and then compare whatever I gather with older traditions...

You knowl....I'd like to get my hands on the Osawa stuff I'd read earlier... I found him to be brilliant. His observations of traditional dietary patterns were amazing to me...his brilliance in observing... he was in Africa at the same the the humanitarian doctor was there.... Albert Schweitzer... and they clashed tremendously while there... schweitzer, in his humane efforts, bringing white man's food to the different tribes in Africa, and also treating them for emerging illnesses... while Osawa obsereved their diets and then accused Schweitzer of making them sick, and then treating them for their illnesses... :P ... needles to say, Schweitzer the doctor/scientist, and Osawa, the lawyer/ amateur traditional diet observer, didn't get along so well while in Africa.

But both Campbell and Taubes claim to be scientifically articulate...I mean, Campbell the researcher, and Tuabes the scientific journalist. I don't know what they think of each other... no idea... no mention of either one in eithe rbook that I can recall... but both speak of the McGovern groups that were discussing dietary issues back in the 70s... two differing sides of that story.

I could go on and on with this...however... I really don't want to offend people, as I said, not my intention... my intention is just to really dig into my fascination with all of this, and it would be really fun if others joined in the conversation-- bouncing around this stuff and sharing thoughts, ideas...stuff they've read or experienced personally.

My myself...I am attempting to eat grain free for the first time since attempting raw vegan several years back. My attempts at raw vegan failed quickly everytime I tried... got too hungry and went nuts in just a few days. This time, as everyone here probably knows.... I'm not quite vegan right now, and am attempting grain free in this way...just to see for myself what happens, good or bad.

So far, I haven't done so well... I made it about a week and a half, then my mom got really sick and I had to spend lots of time helping them out and found myself catching up with popcorn, tortilla chips, gluten free pbj or humus sandwiches, and even made some cobblers with sorghum flour to try to relax after enduring stressful ordeals, etc.

I started again...and then ate a brown rice chocolate bar last night...so... planning on company tongight with corn masa based stuff... then I'll get back on the grain-free wagon once again.

I figger a month off grains (although at the rate I'm going with it...I might still count a month even if I have a few days here and there in which I include some grains...as long as it's not entirely off the wagon) might give me some hints/clues as to if there's any real benefits. As I said... my results might be different because I am now including some animal protein sources. Gotta say, though...that does take away the hunger for me. Still not sure if I will continue with that, though, as I'm worried about the healthfullness of that... right now, though... it's how I get by.

IN the link, the previously discussed Jeff Novick grain quote can be found:
http://breathing.com/grain-damage.htm

As I said before, this quote is ten years old now, but I still feel unclear whether Jeff Novick himself has started eating grains or not again...if so...wondering if his allergies stayed away after including grains back again.
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Postby DianeR » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:53 am

No reason to be unclear. Mr. Novick recently said the following on this forum:

"In regard to the quote of mine on the old book: many people do suffer from gluten intolerance to grains, and do better without the gluten containing ones (wheat, rye, oats, barley) and I for one am who finds the less of these grains the better. According to results that came out about a year ago from Dr. Alessio Fasano's Celiac Disease Center at the University of Maryland, the incidence of formal gluten intolerance is estimated to be about 1 in 133 in America and the incidence may even be higher as this rate is for the formally diagnosed disease and there may be many others who have a milder form of intolerance and/or sensitivity. I do still include some "intact" whole grains, and you can find some great article on this issue at my website."

A link to that "great article" is in my previous post on this thread.

Actually, when I have the time I want to read through all his old newsletters ...
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Postby groundhogg » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:42 am

Thanks, DianeR.

But when I compare the actual quote, which I linked to, to his more current discussion of problems with gluten only... I see a chasm in the info... I'm still not clear when he says grains are a recent addition, addictive, etc., and then says he had to entirely get away from grains to get over his allergies. I'm not clear IF he meant gluten grains ONLY, given the quote appeared as an endorsement for a raw guy's book about all grains (Grain Damage, by Doug Graham)... the quote didn't specify or give any reason for anybody to think he meant gluten problems; rather, in the context of where it appears, it seems to indicate his feelings and experience with all grains.

What I'd like to know is if he eats ANY grains now...if so, when did he start eating them again, or did he ever quit any grains besides gluten grains? And, if he did quit other grains and start them back up again, did this affect his allergies in any way at all?

I'm just still unclear in knowing exactly what he meant...or if he changed his mind over the years (which is perfectly legitimate, in my own thinking... I mean part of making your lifelong learning and experience of value is in freely changing your mind or positions whenever the issues before you are indicative that it's the best choice).. ., I just don't feel I can make the quote jive with his response to my satisfaction right now.

Does it jive with you? I'm just trying to put things together I've read and experienced... and they all gotta jive, or it leaves me baffled. And, believe me, a baffled groundhog is a sight to see!!! :eek:
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Postby DianeR » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:19 am

I would be more inclined to go with what the man himself says in his extended comments, than an old quote that could have been taken out of context by the author of that other book.

Mr. Novick has commented on this board. So you can always email him and ask directly. Or you can ask questions on his web site.

I did find this in one of his recent newsletters, though, which would seem to answer your question. I supply the emphasis:


QUESTION: “On a similar note, I read a quote where in 1998 you said you were only able to get over your own allergies by removing grains entirely from your diet, and that you have also noticed this with others you worked with. I was wondering if you still feel this way about eating grains?”

Many people do suffer a variety of symptoms (i.e. allergies, Abdominal cramping/bloating, constipation, irritability, depression, fatigue, headaches, etc.) from a gluten intolerance to some grains. Often times, these people can reduce or eliminate many, if not all, of their problematic symptoms when they eliminate the gluten containing grains, such as wheat, rye, oats, and barley from their diet. While the quote you are referring to is often blown out of proportion and taken out of context, I am one who finds that, for me personally, the less of these grains I consume, the better. And I am not alone.
...

As for me, I still do include some non-gluten containing "intact" whole grains in my diet on occasion, such as rice, corn, buckwheat (kasha), millet, and quinoa.

http://www.jeffnovick.com/content/view/447/349/

If you want to know what he means by "on occasion," I guess you need to ask him. I certainly don't read him, either here or in other places, as being generally down on all whole grains for everyone.
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Postby Yoga Nurse » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:20 am

Actually Jeff Novick and I emailed back and forth a number of years ago. He probably doesn't remember me as I'm sure he has been in contact with at least hundreds of people. He's extremely generous with his time and knowledge. He was at that time, I believe, working at the Pritikin center and encouraged me to get professional credentials- which I have done (and continue to add to.)

That was at a time when I thought that I would return to raw food which I had eaten for a couple of years back in the mid-seventies. I decided against staying with raw food, returning to McDougall, but was strongly influenced by a lot of what he (Jeff) taught. I'm delighted he's working with Dr. McDougall now.

I am not advocating or pushing the use of grains for those who have a problem with them. As Burgess has found out, it's not impossible to McDougall without them. We can easily base our starches around potatoes, yams etc.

I, for one, am not threatened by new ideas, nor am I somehow "insulted" by them. I only feel "insulted" when a disparaging remark is made about me directly. And online, that is just about impossible as we don't even know each other. I'm excited by new ideas. I do, however, strongly believe in research, peer reviewed preferably, which must be then filtered through my own experience and educated judgement. And I also believe in attributing to people what they have actually said. If anyone is uncertain as to what Dr. McDougall teaches they can easily find the "free program" he offers on his website. There he lists the foods that are acceptable and those to avoid. I do remember that in his first book, The McDougall Plan, he said that everyone should probably limit to some extent their intake of wheat- his example was that a whole loaf of whole wheat bread in a day was probably too much gluten for anyone and could give anyone symptoms. (I was breastfeeding at the time and eating a whole loaf of my own bread was something I could easily do!) In his research study on RA, he did not limit or exclude gluten containing grain and still got excellent results. He did say that the results may have been better had he eliminated them, but that may have been too difficult for the participants for that particular study. Of course this was only his speculation. The results may or may not have improved.

What's a little amusing to me about all this is that I eat almost no gluten. I'm usually too busy (or lazy?) now to cook. I have a wonderful rice cooker or I bake potatoes and add steamed vegies along with some fresh fruit and I'm happy. I also feel great. But if I go out to eat, I will eat breads and other wheat containing foods and am fine with that.

Oh, and I do have a couple of books written by Georges Oshawa. I'll have to look at them. All I can remember is his picture of John Kennedy's eyes labeled "super sanpaku". . .
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Postby groundhogg » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:40 pm

:lol: Well...there's often a nutty element to Osawa's writings too... I've never paid a whole lot of attention to stuff like sanpaku ... I mean, except in certain obviously mentally disturbed people... like serial killers who have their iris surrounded totally by the whites of their eyeballs...and everybody can just tell by lookin' at them that they ain't such nice folks with nice intentions...

Thanks DianeR, for the referral to the newer quote, in response to the older quote...but I'm sayin' that there's not enough info to tie the old and new together for me... I mean... the quote that appeared on the back of the 98 Graham book about grains...all grains.... speaking as a raw advocater, Doug Graham was...and a little quote on the back by Novick about grains, in which he says he avoided grains entirely (or eomthing...look at the link and read it) for his allergies... and accounted that grains were such a new addition to the diet of humans and were addicitve, etc. Now, he did not specify gluten grains... and as a quote on the back of a vegan raw book... seems he was endorsing a diet of NO grains whatsoever. Now, as I've said...the man certainly has a right to change his mind if thigns happen over the course of a decade to turn him in a different direction...and I highly respect people that are brave enough to change their minds rather than just go on and on defending something they said a long time ago... so... it's okay with me if he changed his mind...but going by the new quote... I'm just confused... going by the old quote, it seems he dropped ALL grains from his diet to get relief from allergies, and said grains were a recent, addictive, etc. addiditon to the human diet... and it wouldn't be just gluten grains that this idea would apply to... now the recent quote... seems he's saying he includes some grains, but not glutinous grains... so... I'm confused as to in 98, did he drop all grains and then discover at some point later that the non-glutinous grains did not cause him to have allergies... or did he have to drop all grains to get over the allergies, and then find later that he was able to finally add nonglutinous grains back and still stay well ... or ... well...what? See what I mean... I'm not getting enough info from those two quotes to have a state of jive come out of it... so I'm just wondering.

Wondering becasue of many other things I've read that cause me to wonder about grains... as I said... how traditional diets combine certain foods with certain grains... seeing those celiacs (and others) who say they become really healthy when getting onto the scd, which avoids all grains... reading about the poor villi healing in most celiacs after 2 years gluten free (less than half become normal)... and have to wonder... I HAVE to wonder, because I feel I need to know what my body needs to be as healthy as possible... and will do whatever is necessary to ensure ... and do not want to inadvertently cause any more harm to my body than I've already done. So... knowing about grains is important to me... in my search... I've come across many fascinating ideas and arguments about all kinds of stuff, so far.
groundhogg
 

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Postby Berry » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:15 pm

groundhogg wrote::lol: the quote that appeared on the back of the 98 Graham book about grains...all grains....

and a little quote on the back by Novick about grains, in which he says he avoided grains entirely (or eomthing...look at the link and read it) for his allergies... and accounted that grains were such a new addition to the diet of humans and were addicitve, etc. Now, he did not specify gluten grains... and as a quote on the back of a vegan raw book... seems he was endorsing a diet of NO grains whatsoever.


but going by the new quote... I'm just confused... going by the old quote, it seems he dropped ALL grains from his diet to get relief from allergies, and said grains were a recent, addictive, etc. addiditon to the human diet... and it wouldn't be just gluten grains that this idea would apply to... now the recent quote... seems he's saying he includes some grains, but not glutinous grains... so...

I'm confused as to in 98, did he drop all grains and then discover at some point later that the non-glutinous grains did not cause him to have allergies... or did he have to drop all grains to get over the allergies, and then find later that he was able to finally add nonglutinous grains back and still stay well ...

or ... well...what? See what I mean... I'm not getting enough info from those two quotes to have a state of jive come out of it... so I'm just wondering.

and have to wonder...

I HAVE to wonder, because I feel I need to know what my body needs to be as healthy as possible... and will do whatever is necessary to ensure ... .


you could simply PM or email Mr. Novick privately and ask him directly what he meant or means.
Last edited by Berry on Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby groundhogg » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:57 am

Well...it looks like it's Mr. Novick, going by credentials on his site... however... degrees don't always mean a lot to me... trust me... I work around stuffy phd's all day long, some of them seem smart enough (I hate the word smart, cuz i think basically we are all the same, just expressed through different talents, etc., whatever, but use the word solely for the sake of conversation), others frequently say incorrect things...for instance, the one who always says pentultimate for penultimate, etc., etc. I mean, it's okay with me... but they aren't always that impressive either because they have a phd, or on the other hand, if someone is illiterate...and I've known many illiterate folks who were brilliant, creative, etc.

But Berry... what sort of bad intentions are you thinking I have in discussing my thoughts here?

I mean... yeah... I McDougalled for over a decade, to the T (except for coffee, and had vegan baked goods with added fat only on Thanksgiving and Christmas...the rest strict McDougalling for over 10 years)... now if something went wrong with me, I believe I have the right to know and understand fully the circumstances I find myself in right now. I don't know if my digestion, or my life (have to be paranoid about ALL foods at this point) will ever be the same, or even close to normal again. So... not only do I have the right to know what went wrong, but actually I feel an ehtical obligation to not just drop out, hidden away...the outcast for whom things went sour... who does that help? I have a hard time believing I'm THAT much of a total oddball... I think rather than just become silent, I need to figure out what wnet wrong, how to make it right again (hoping others can help me figure that out), and also possibly be of assistance to anyone else who might be having similar difficulties. I hate that lots of people feel the need to jump all over anyone in this difficult situation...

I mean... when everythings' groovy everybody's pals...but when something goes wrong... let's just blame the victim and then accuse that person of all sorts of insidious motives. I mean... OUCH! Rub the salt into the wounds. I feel bad enough... lost and confused... and then when I feel distrusted on top of that... wwell... there's just no where to turn... who would, or could understand???? It's a very lonely situation. I can't tell anyone but my old McDougall friends; the SAD people around me would certainly get a big kick outta knowing what's happened to me now, I fear. So I'm finding myself in a situation...desperately seeking a way to figure things back out again. I assure you, I'm not trying to do anything more than attempt to help myself, and possibly any others as weird as I am.

Oh, and Yoga Nurse, are you sure Dr. McDougall said this:

.He did say that the results may have been better had he eliminated them [gluten grains], but that may have been too difficult for the participants ... ?

Because, coming from a doctor who has said the exact opposite about reversing heart disease because a restrictive diet is a lot easier than the alternative poor health...just doesn't make much sense.
groundhogg
 

Postby Yoga Nurse » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:55 pm

To answer your question, Groundhogg-

Yes- here's the quote:

"Even though elimination
diet studies and some of the studies using vegan
diets have found cereals, such as wheat and
corn, can aggravate patients with RA, we
elected to include these foods in our design.
This is because they are commonly enjoyed
foods and the investigators’ experiences are
that few people benefit from this further restriction.
It is possible that our results would
have been even better without the cereals."

I don't agree that he says the opposite regarding heart disease. His diet reverses heart disease and is the same diet used in this study. I understand him to say that it's possible some would have done better with further restriction but that it wasn't necessary for most. Though I was not a part of this study, it would not have benefited me to eliminate those cereals. I do equally well with or without added cereals. It was still a pure McDougall diet and what he has always recommended. (that's why I still disagree with your idea that he thinks it's better to eliminate gluten from his diet- He doesn't. Sorry and please don't jump down my throat. He says it's better for some people- obviously you for one.)

Whenever a researcher writes up his or her research (perhaps you already know this, but there may be others who don't) there is discussion at the end regarding possible problems with the research, possible other ways it might have been done, and what the next step might be.

Here is a link to the actual study:

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/McDougall_Arthritis.pdf


Groundhogg, please take this in the spirit that it is written. No one is trying to disparage you, your thoughts, your writing or anything else. I certainly am not. I don't agree with you on some issues (and I don't even like to knit though I do like spinning :) ) I think you are taking things to heart because you are confused and searching and have gone through a difficult time. It's awful feeling sick. I can only agree having been quite ill myself. Perhaps if you had consulted with Dr. McDougall earlier it may have saved you from some suffering, or perhaps not. The point is, you are where you are now and that's fine. You are starting to find answers and I for one applaud you in your search. I wish you wouldn't eat fish, but that is my opinion only. (I grieve for the fish, truly.)

I don't think Berry was saying anything but why don't you simply write to Jeff Novick and ask him what he thinks now about grains and what caused his beliefs to change if they did.

Anna
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Postby DianeR » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:55 pm

You're right about the qualifications. I was relying on my memory and obviously have him confused with someone else. Now I'll have to figure out who ... Sorry about that.

I think Berry was just wondering why you don't ask Jeff Novick to further explain. I don't know that any of us know exactly everything he's said in the past and why, how he's eaten through the years, etc. I don't think "bad intentions" were necessarily being attributed to you at all. I know sometimes posts on the internet can be read different ways and can be seen in a different way than intended. It's happened to me from both directions before.

I certainly haven't meant anything negative about anyone. Believe me, if I were to go negative, there would be no ambiguity :lol:

If you do ask Mr. Novick and get an answer, I would be interested in hearing what he says. But obviously, whether someone else can or cannot tolerate this or that grain doesn't answer if I can, or you can.
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Postby DianeR » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:00 pm

Oh, Yoga Nurse and I posted at the same time. I was not trying to be duplicative or nagging or something ...
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Postby Yoga Nurse » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:16 pm

Hi Diane- didn't think you were. And I hope you don't mind that I "borrowed" your Moynihan quote earlier. I figured it was okay as he used to be my senator and in fact lived only a short distance from where I live!

Anna
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Postby DianeR » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:34 pm

If I minded, you would be the first to know about it :D

Can't really mind -- it's his quote, not mine. I'll just think of you as my disciple :lol:
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Postby Yoga Nurse » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:10 pm

ooohhh ... maybe I'll just let that one pass. . . :)
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