Groundhog~Dr.McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff....??

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Postby DianeR » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:25 am

Oh well, it was worth a try :lol:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. --
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Baked goods

Postby Nancy Louise » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:30 am

I watched a video of Mary mixing a recipe for pumpkin muffins using flour. I think the processed things bans are for the MWL program. I have both books here. I decided to lose more slowly and use some processed, but healthy, things.
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Postby Berry » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:39 am

I am Tom. I am Berry's husband writing this. Berry and I hope you do find whatever the the help is you need to resolve your many many questions & problems and to get well . Tom
Last edited by Berry on Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby groundhogg » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:53 am

To Tom and Berry...

I am sorry if I said anything inappropriate to Berry... If I did so, I cannot think of what it could have been, and believe that somehow y'all may have misconstrued something I said and taken it personally. Regardless, I am not one to want to hurt anyone else in any way, and will ask you to accept an apology from me for the sake of avoiding hurting anyone here.

I'm sorry if you interpret my vociferous nature as someone in great need of attention... not true... I've always talked a lot, read a lot, thought a lot, and enjoyed communication in anyway I can muster it. I thoroughly enjoy back and forth... point / counterpoint with others, and am really shocked that it is so often seen as offensive.

As far as my own problems go... I hate to be sick, cannot tolerate it at all., even having a mild head cold drives me completely crazy. I was always pretty healthy, but since I can't stand to feel ill, I began reading about diets to attempt to STAY healthy. Also, I have found a lot of harm in going by doctor's orders...had unnecessary surgeries and many problems from things doctors did to me in the past... I find them mostly fumbly and incapable of doing much good, for the most part, in my own experience with them. I ran across Mcdougalling to protect my health and ensure a better future. When I ran into unexpected problems that changed my health and my life forever, with gluten intolerance, this flipped my world, my understanding, my trust, over completley, upsideown. I haven't handled it well, I will admit. I'm grappling for answers and to make my diet work for me... it has always been my hope to engage in honest, meaningful discussion with others so that together we can compare our experience and understanding and help one another solve such problems.

It hurts me terribly to think this whole scenario, which has hurt me, has caused me to inadvertently hurt others.
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To Groundhogg

Postby KristaO » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:08 am

Berry wrote:I am Tom. I am Berry's husband writing this. I have something to say to the one who uses the name Groundhog. I am offended on behalf of my wife Berry. I am offended by your inappropriate and unkind accusations printed here on Dr. McDougall's board addressed to her and about her . Berry suggested to you a practical and commonsense solution that seemed obvious. .She thought you really wanted to know what the Mr. Novick thought because you kept talking about it. To be helpful She said if you really wanted to know what the Mr. Novick means & thinks or used to think and so on that you can contact Him instead of wondering about it over and over again on the board. I think Your response addressed to Berry was bizarre I think you said things inapporpriate and mean. None of us in our family will bel reading what you say anymore. I notice the things you write about often don't seem fitted to the prupose of this Doctors board anyway. Out of kindness and concern we do wish to leave for you one last suggestion. You say things like you are lost, confused. desperate.... Have you thoughtto secure for yourself some private counseling? To us it looks that You write here like you need attention very much, like to talk very very much & some of the time like you think you are victimized and behave paranoid, and write very defensive if someone offers a suggestion not to your liking. even while you seem to take the privilege and justifying of writing any thing at all that flows through your mind. Weve noticed that if someone doesnt answer something you write that you will answer your writings yourself. I read that most often of what you write has nothing to do with the Doctors program or is putting up questions or seeds of doubt about it. You talk abou many times so many many worries troubles problems and confusions that you talk about again and again. Maybe the scope of this Doctors board is not for helping all that. I would personally not continue go to a place established For something to find our reasons Against it if I sincerely wanted a resoution of my problems in that area. A live trained professional private counselor for you to talk to and for you to be able to get all his attention directed to you and all your problems concerns questions confusisons that you frequently mention could maybe help you sort through? And to consult a real live trustworthy Doctor about maybe to find an exact reason fro some of your medical problems? Berry and I hope you do find whatever the the help is you need to resolve your many many questions & problems and to get well . Tom


Groundhogg - I have to say that I agree with Tom. :shock: Trying to read through posts in a hurry, then finding your long paragraphs is frustrating. It's often off topic and repetitive. And I agree that perhaps you may need counseling. Doug Lisle does phone consultations and he's excellent, and he is a very caring person. There are quite a few people who agree with me in that you need to be brief and to the point in your posts. And if people don't answer your posts, then don't answer them yourself! :lol: I don't want to sound mean, and that's not my intention, but I just had to finally say something to you. We all care about you and hope that you get the help you need. :thumbsup:
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I know I shouldn't get involved but...

Postby Fern » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:56 pm

If you don't like, it don't read it. You are in control here, not Groundhogg. No one is making you read any posts, no one is asking you to. Read what interests you and leave the other posts alone. I don't read anywhere near 100% of the posts, they just don't appeal to me. I don't need to know what everyone is doing on this board. I take from this entire board what helps me and leave the rest behind for others to partake of.

Perhaps you have never been in such a desparate health situation. I have, in several aspects. I have tremendous empathy for her concerns, regardless of how much of her writings I agree with.

Also, I will state again that her ramblings are leading me to another breakthrough in my quest for health and I remain grateful for her presence.
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Postby KristaO » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:59 pm

I appreciate your honest post, and I'm glad groundhogg has helped you. You seem to be in the minority, however, as *many* people are upset with groundhogg's disruptive posts. I'm speaking for a lot of people here who are just too polite to say anything, except in PM's.

The main reason I'm responding to your post is to clarify something - you implied that I don't have empathy for groundhogg's problems. This is not true. In fact, that is why I recommended Dr. Lisle. He's an excellent psychologist and I believe he could help her.

The issue here is: Discussion Board Etiquette!
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Postby groundhogg » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:00 pm

To those of you who have PM-ed each other about me, telling whatever tales you have, feeling the need to resort to such childishness, especially those whom I've considered friends and would do anything for... I'm very disappointed in this behavior. It's apparent that the only ones who understand my situation are others who suffer from gluten intolerance, some more than I do... I admire their ability to get through... I personally am struggling... maybe not as strong as some of the others are in dealing with such situations.

To those who have bothered to gossip behind my back, I'm very happy for you that you cannot comprehend what gluten intolerance is capable of, and I sincerely hope to God that you never have it or anything else destroy your life, yet I do hope you learn to be more sensitive to your fellow man.

By the way, I'm not on a low-carb diet, and do not endorse that... I've just been reading lots of ideas (I think we are all free to do so here_) and am not intimidated by ideas from all walks of life. I've had to resort to eating fish because my options have diminished quite a bit during the last several months.

I find it pathetic, even frightening, that people are so closed-minded that I have to continually justify everything I've said, repeated, and clarified until I can't stand it anymore, and still come out totally misconstrued. Take off the blinders and just think... if you're so scared you'll find something faulty or unexpected in your current thinking, then you're existential anxiety has gotten the best of you. You're acting like a bunch of thoughtless, clannish, middle school children, if I might be bold enough to say something bad about someone else, myself. Forgive me for saying it.
groundhogg
 

Postby dagnabit » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:40 am

Good grief! Some of us need to grow a little thicker skins (i.e. not get offended so easily). While others of us should be a little less provocative. I for one have enjoyed many of groundhogg's public rants and musings. They can stimulate debate at a higher intellectual level. They have certainly been good food for thought and have led me to delve into some new lines of research. But at the same time we need to keep in mind that many on this board are beginners and are easily confused by "trolls" (def "troll": "someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response") even if they are not intentionally meant as such.

Personally, I think Taubes is a "troll" at a grander scale. All of his books, including those not about nutrition, deal with scientific controversies. He likes to muddy the water with FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), which is a proven way (ask the National Dairy Council!) to prevent consensus and to confuse the public. I'm sure the $700,000 advance on his latest book made it easier to stir up some FUD and selectively choose the best studies to support his hypothesis and the worst ones to discredit the growing scientific consensus which he dismisses too easily.

To me the huge recent meta-analysis (synthesis of over 7000 studies) of the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research, which is probably the most comprehensive analysis of the literature on diet and cancer, gives a much stronger indication of direction this debate should be heading. In line with this way of thinking, two excellent books I have read recently, can help sort the FUD on both sides: (1) Michael Pollan's, In Defense of Food, where he dismisses much of the nutritional debate as irrelevant and boils it all down to "Eat Food. Not too Much. Mostly Plants". He even takes Taubes to task for going too far in his carbophobia and missing the importance of the thousands phytochemicals that are found in plant-based food that are essential to good health. And (2) Dean Ornish's The Spectrum, which presents our diet as a spectrum of eating between ideal foods on the one end and the less ideal on the other. He allows for people in good health to indulge every now and again in less ideal foods, but, by being more inclusive, is steering a greater number of people towards "the light". His book is packed with references to what feels and sounds like "good" research, a fair amount he was personally involved with.

Most of us on this board probably feel that we should go further than Pollan or Ornish toward living on the good end of the spectrum (i.e. all plant-based), but that debate is a matter of personal preference and personal state of health and is really quite minor and certainly less controversial. I think this forum is an ideal place to discuss the nuances of our selected way of eating and to reinforce those that may be struggling. Still, a little bit of controversy here and there to spice up our discussions will not hurt. So keep up the posts groundhogg, just keep your audience in mind.
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Re: Groundhog~Dr.McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff..

Postby sojourner » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:09 am

sojourner wrote:
groundhogg wrote:
Could it be possible (again...I'm NOT siding with ANYONE at this point) that both Atkins extremists AND doctors like McDougall/Ornish see results because they frown on flour/ baked stuff???? Could that be one uniting factor present in both that's important enough to health that cuases the confusion of people in both extremes getting better?????? ....


Hi groundhog,
I saw at another place on the board what you said about Dr. McDougall frowning on flour and baked stuff.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... highlight= . I didn't want my question to you to get lost in that long list of posts so I moved my question to a new post for you here.

Will you please cite references to where Dr. McDougall "frowns on flour/baked stuff"? I want to read about that and find out why Dr. McDougall frowns on flour and baked stuff. I didn't know that about his program. What you said is disturbing and confusing to read and I want to understand why he has changed this major part of his program.

Thank you to those who attempted to contribute to the topic of this post.
I am the person who started this thread. I asked groundhogg to cite references for a statement s/he made about Dr. McDougall. Many posts and "thousands" of words later, the request is unanswered.
Instead this has turned into yet another thread about groundhogg.
sojourner
 

to KristaO:

Postby Fern » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:07 pm

You are intolerably rude. Suggesting that someone needs a psychiatrist in this situation cannot possibly masquerade as empathy.

The title of this thread has groundhoggs name in it, why did you ever open the thread and read it? You remind of the people who listen to Howard Stern and then demand that he be taken off the air. If you don't like it, don't read it, why upset yourself?

I personally don't like or agree with every post on this board, yours is the only one I have ever responded to in this manner. You have gone too far by attacking another member of this forum.

Is it not possible for you to ignore her posts? There are many that I ignore so it seems possible for you to do the same.

And if the issue truly is board etiquette, I am quite certain you have violated it by attacking another poster.
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Postby Autumn » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:32 pm

I have tried my best to stay out of this but this is a "food board" not deciding if someone needs therapy and if you truly want to help someone in that way you should do it personally through a private message not airing it out as a few of you have done.

The only one who can decide if someone needs mental help is a psychologist or a psychiatrist, not others on a message board. If you truly care about groundhog and her feelings I hope you stop this as it has to be very hurtful to her.

I pmed Carol as to me this is getting out of hand and it may need intervention.
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Postby groundhogg » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:32 pm

To Sojourner,

I believe I answered your question to the best of my ability somewhere on up in this thread... rather than have you have to seek it out, I'll just repeat what I remember saying before... the answer is no, unfortunately I don't have any actual reference to McDouall and flour... I just remember at some point reading, probably in one of his newsletter, and I can't even remember how long ago this was (but thinking it must have been within the past three years or so), but reading that he was using his MWL on his programs at his clinic more than the regluar, so-called "12-day" plan, which does use flour... and, of course, the MWL uses grains in their unground state only. If I remember it right, he found better success in treating people (probably weight, blood sugar issues, I would guess, but I don't remember if it was specified) on MWL and decided to rely on that more in his clinic. Unless he has changed his mind more recently than that, I'm figuring maybe it still is doing it that way.

To Fern and Autumn; Your willingness to understand and jump in such a mess of hatred and childishness on my behalf literally brings tears to my eyes, and I can't thank you enough for your bravery and kindness in this situation.

But again, I feel it is only those who have suffered from gluten problems who seem to be capable of understanding my situation. It reminds me of dozens of posts I've read on celiac boards in which actual doctors "treated" these folks suffering very similar things by giving them anti-depressants and telling them they needed "counseling," so it seems to be a common reaction that celiacs often must suffer through... that nobody really gets the difficulties unless they have also walked in your shoes.

I have always tried to bring humor, fun, helpfulness, fairness, and friendship to this board, at least since the late 90s, when I first got involved with McDougalling. I see no good reason for these attacks against me. I have thought of many of the people (yes, I noticed the PMs, those who passed them back and forth) who seemed to have mounted a coalition against me as my cyberspace friends. Now I feel like some stupid idiot for being so naive to think that people CAN think and could find difficult challenges in life as stimulants for intellectual invesitgation... as many philosophers and scientists have acknowledged... the real purpose of scientific investigation is to find problems within your hypotheses...test them and look for errors. What catapulted me into this was a gluten problem which has made my life very difficult for me.

For me, the month of January was crossed off as wasted to gluten damage...

New year's Eve day, I spent the day having the big D uncontrollably, all day, and couldn't leave the house....or more realistically, the restroom. I was in agony. I had eaten at a buffet two days earlier and was as paranoid as ever about possible gluten contamination...but...thanks to this gluten situation that now rules my life, I'd somehow gotten some gluten in spite of my carefulness.

That whole week of new year's I spent in the bathroom. The next week, my mom was taken to the hospital and I had to spend another week there, down in ICU, where they really don't have restrooms. I won't go into detail about the measures I had to take to deal with a bad situation, or the nausea, pains and cramps, the problems I myself had as I had to deal with helping my mom, who had many close calls with death herself while there. On top of that, I can never tell my family about my suffering, becasue I was always preaching to them about how their diet was killing them and they should embrace mine...so if I told them about my life now, it wouldn't go over so well.

The next week after that my mom was back on her own and I was back at work, still dragging myself through the job, sick, trying to be close to the restroom and just dealing with lots of pain and problems... my husband and daughter were worrying about me and begging me to go to a doctor, but I insisted the doctors don't know anything and would only try to scare me into lots of invasive, medicated, proceedures which would probably only make me worse.

The next week after that, it began to wear off, although I still spent my mornings doubled over and close to restrooms... but I started working out as planned for January 1st...just a few weeks late. During this whole time, my eating is topsy-turvy... seems my body hates all foods. If salmon works... what the heck... I can't say no to whatever works. I tried pinto beans, an old favorite, and they just tore me up bad. So now I'm scared of pinto beans.

Yesterday was my first painfree day...today I feel GOOD. Chalk up the entire month of January to something bad for me at that restaurant... which my family insisted on meeting at for a birthday celebration. Next time I'll find some excuse not to celebrate anything with anbydoy.

Maybe this all sounds easy... I know lots of people deal with much, much worse stuff than this. But it's just an example of how my life has changed...

There seem to be two issues here... intolerance or denial of the potential problems of gluten... and intolerance to testing hypotheses or ideas pertaining to diet for honing in on better information, whether that comes by further endorsing of what was previously believed, or finding errors there.

I'm so sorry to have caused so many hard feelings here, as I've only tried to help others, and was now attempting to help myself, hoping, in that process, to help any others who may share similar problems. I am truly sorry this has caused so much pain.
groundhogg
 

Postby KristaO » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:54 pm

Good points about my post; however, it was *not* my intention to hurt, and I apologize if it appeared that way. I did not say that groundhogg needed help, I said she "may" need counseling. How many times has she talked about being confused, as it appeared she was asking for our help? Yes, perhaps I should have said this in a PM, but my intention was to help, not attack. I think recent posts with name calling like "childish" and "intolerably rude" are certainly more of an attack than mine, as I did not call anyone names. My posts were just comments about "board etiquette" which I feel was violated. This would not have continued on the old discussion board! I wish she would take the suggestions about her posts as feedback not attacks! This is not a "mess of hatred" groundhogg, come on now! Think about the things that Tom said, groundhogg. I think it's time to declare peace, pray for groundhogg and get on with the issues we should be discussing on this board.
KristaO
 

Postby groundhogg » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:03 pm

You're right, KristaO... Vegsource would not allow posts with the word, Gluten, in them. Seriously... I wondered if the Nelson's had their fortunes tied up with the Wheat council or something (said in an atmosphere of humor, lest someone accuse me of accusing them, etc., etc. etc.) Kidding...but seriously, they wouldn't allow gluten in the equation, which, from my reading (again, reading that was an early inspiration of my own gluten struggles), it seems gluten should be up front in vegetarian and vegan issues.... I've read where many gastroenterolgists who were able to identify gluten problems in their patients often saw this triggered by sudden increase in gluten in the diet... I saw everything blamed from being on Weight Watchers to being macorbiotic. So... during my own struggles, I have hoped to be helpful in bringing enough perspicacity to the possibilities in a population that habitually might eat more gluten than average to possibly help any others.

I'm not the only one who thinks this way... did you see the Klaper video someone posted to a while back from the Hawaii vegan society? He was discussing followup on long-term vegans who just didn't make it... attempting to find possible problems some may encounter so as to help them, rather than lash out at them and ostracize them for their failure to thrive. One of the problems was gluten. Watch his video... sorry I don't have a link, but it was on here a while back.
groundhogg
 

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