Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

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Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Helpinghands » Sun May 21, 2017 12:49 pm

I was wondering around various vegan site when I ran into this article on Vegan.com. It was a piece written by Ginny Messina a well respected vegan RD. The article is titles "Vegan Nutrition Guide". And here is the part I found disturbing:

Don’t hesitate to include other fat-rich foods in your diet, too, if you like them. Low-fat diets are based on an outdated understanding of nutrition that’s been largely discredited. Current recommendations support a wide range of fat intakes for good health, anywhere from 20 to 35 percent of daily calories. (This translates to 22 to 39 grams of fat for every 1,000 calories you eat.) What matters most isn’t how much fat you consume, but rather the type of fat you choose.


I kept thinking, "discredited" by whom? And where in the world does a very well educated vegan RD come up with this kind of thinking? And why?

I wonder whether Dr. McDougall, Essy, Ornish or Jeff would like to comment on this piece and possibly straighten this lady out.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Spiral » Sun May 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Helpinghands wrote:I was wondering around various vegan site when I ran into this article on Vegan.com. It was a piece written by Ginny Messina a well respected vegan RD. The article is titles "Vegan Nutrition Guide". And here is the part I found disturbing:

Don’t hesitate to include other fat-rich foods in your diet, too, if you like them. Low-fat diets are based on an outdated understanding of nutrition that’s been largely discredited. Current recommendations support a wide range of fat intakes for good health, anywhere from 20 to 35 percent of daily calories. (This translates to 22 to 39 grams of fat for every 1,000 calories you eat.) What matters most isn’t how much fat you consume, but rather the type of fat you choose.


I kept thinking, "discredited" by whom? And where in the world does a very well educated vegan RD come up with this kind of thinking? And why?

I wonder whether Dr. McDougall, Essy, Ornish or Jeff would like to comment on this piece and possibly straighten this lady out.

Ginny Messina's explanation is a bit confusing.

She says
Current recommendations support a wide range of fat intakes for good health, anywhere from 20 to 35 percent of daily calories.


This 20 to 35 percent figure does not distinguish between essential fat and non-essential fat.

But then she writes
What matters most isn’t how much fat you consume, but rather the type of fat you choose.

Here she seems to be hinting, without explicitly saying, that we simply need to consume sufficient amounts of essential fat in order to be healthy.

Why not say that? Why not tell people which kinds of fats are essential and how much we are likely to need? Why would a diet that is very low in total fat but containing sufficient amounts of essential fat be considered unhealthy?

How would Ginny Messina explain the excellent results received by patients of Dr. Esselstyn?

ADDED:

Another thought about fat. When we eat food with fat in them, we get different kinds of fat. Some monounsaturated fat, some saturated fat and some polyunsaturated fat.

So, it is very hard to consume a diet that is low in saturated fat, the kind of fat that is implicated in heart disease and diabetes, while consuming a diet that is high in total fat.

That's another reason why Ginny Messina seems way off base here.
Last edited by Spiral on Sun May 21, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Sun May 21, 2017 1:16 pm

Vegan evangelists disagree about how much fat is optimal but everyone does agree that unrefined vegan foods are the best for health. Many people do find it hard to lose weight if they eat too much nuts, seeds and avocado. Most traditional diets are low in fat bec the cheap staple foods like tubers and whole grains are low in fat.
If you follow the plant plate of Virginia Messina you will probably get a low fat diet since it is actually very close to the Dr Mcdougall diet (just get rid of the optional olive oil, juice) : http://www.theveganrd.com/wp-content/up ... raphic.jpg
In the last multiple sclerosis study of Dr Mcdougall, people doing the Dr Mcdougall diet at home gravitated towards about 15% fat in the diet which is quite close to the recommendation of Virginia Messina so the disagreements between them are quite negligible. Dr Mcdougall often speaks in the same conference as more mainstream vegan nutritionists like Brenda Davis who also allows more fat than Dr Mcdougall. Brenda Davis also recommends the same staple foods as Dr Mcdougall such as tubers and whole grains so there is more agreement than disagreement.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby bbq » Sun May 21, 2017 1:51 pm

As usual it's just a matter of popping that $64,000 question, did anyone actually follow "current recommendations support a wide range of fat intakes for good health" and manage to reverse the number one killer?

If so, where's the evidence and could we compare those results to the ones provided by Drs. Esselstyn and Ornish?

And then it's still calorically dense at 9 calories for each gram of fat:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/mar/passionate.htm
Starches, like corn, beans, potatoes, and rice, are abundant in carbohydrates, dietary fiber, and are very low in fat. Appetite satisfaction begins with physically filling the stomach. Compared to cheese (4 calories per gram), meat (4 calories per gram), and oils (9 calories per gram), starches, at only one calorie per gram, are very calorie dilute. In the simplest terms, starches physically will fill you up with a fraction—one-fourth—of the calories as will cheese, meat, and oil. Furthermore, research comparing the impact of eating carbohydrates and fats on the appeasement of our appetite shows carbohydrates lead to long-term satiety, enduring for hours between meals; whereas the fats in a meal have little impact on satiety—people are left wanting more food when they eat fats and oils.

BTW, it's kinda strange to be a vegan RD while working for a company that would provide some guidelines for the consumption of meat and dairy:

http://www.theveganrd.com/about/my-professional-experiencecurriculum-vitae
http://stores.numatters.com/preschool-meat-beans/
http://stores.numatters.com/preschool-milk/
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Sun May 21, 2017 2:17 pm

Vegan Reed Mangels, Virginia Messina and her husband are the authors of a textbook for nutritionists about ovolactovegetarians and vegans but personally they are probably all vegans. Reed Mangels seems connected with a vegan activist organization. The husband of Virginia Messina seems to work for the soy industry. Vegans engaging the mainstream will probably need to work with omnivores who are like 99% of the population. Dr Dean Ornish has also given advice to fast food corporations. Dr Mcdougall seems connected with whole foods market in some professional capacity and whole foods market does cater to both omnivores and vegans. Many vegan evangelists are connected with the whole foods market.
Last edited by colonyofcells on Sun May 21, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Spiral » Sun May 21, 2017 2:37 pm

I found this article by Ginny Messina.

Fat in Vegan Diets: How Low Should You Go?
Twenty years ago, when I first started working in the area of vegan nutrition I was a big proponent of very low-fat diets. At that time, when diets like the Ornish plan were especially popular, it really did look like this was the best approach for lowering cholesterol and controlling weight. Since then, our understanding about the role of fat in the diet has changed a lot and the situation is far more complex than we originally thought. Anyone who is taking a serious and honest look at the research on diet and heart disease has to question the low-fat approach.

Really? It would seem that that argument for the low-fat approach has become stronger over time, not weaker.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Sun May 21, 2017 2:47 pm

The differences among the vegan evangelists or healthy eating evangelists can probably be explained by the target audience. For example, Rip Esselstyn targets the more mainstream audience and maybe the younger audience so he is not as strict on nuts, seeds and avocado. Dr mcdougall is stricter on soy, nuts, seeds and avocado probably bec most of his patients are obese and very sick. The mainstream nutritionists do accept that unrefined vegan diets (with b12 supplement) are healthy for all stages of the life cycle but they probably do not believe that a low fat unrefined vegan diet is needed (or optimal) for all stages of the life cycle. The dec 2016 Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics : Vegetarian Diets was authored by Susan Levin (a vegan employee of the pro vegan PCRM), Winston Craig (a believer in a pro vegan religion the seventh day adventists), and Vesanto Melina (the vegan nutrition book writing partner of Brenda Davis).
Last edited by colonyofcells on Tue May 23, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby dlee » Sun May 21, 2017 4:01 pm

The differences among the vegan evangelists or healthy eating evangelists can probably be explained by the target audience. For example, Rip Esselstyn targets the more mainstream audience and maybe the younger...
That may be the reason..just curious why you would call McDougall and all evangelists???.. Dlee
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Sun May 21, 2017 4:28 pm

I use evangelists for vegan promoters and healthy eating promoters since we all want to spread the good news. I also view ethical veganism as a type of religion since we can trace its origins to the India Jain lactovegetarian religion.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby JeffN » Sun May 21, 2017 5:06 pm

Current recommendations support a wide range of fat intakes for good health, anywhere from 20 to 35 percent of daily calories.


This is not a "recommended" amount. It is what is known as a Acceptable Macronutrient Distributiion Range (AMDR), and there is an AMDR for protein, carb and fat. I would recommend looking up the exact meaning and implication of the AMDR's at the original sources that use it (NAS, IOM, WHO) as it is different then what health care professionals like Dr McDougall and myself are doing. Remember, "acceptable" is not the same as optimal, ideal, or that which is best to produce reversal of existing disease.

While I have been a vegan since 1983, I don't consider myself a "vegan RD" because my main goal is to help any person who comes to me to get well, regardless of whether they are vegan or not or even whether they want to become a vegan, or not.

Several vegan leaders, including some who quote the above ranges, say I make it difficult for people to become a vegan because I'm to strict. However, I have no interest in getting people to become vegan, that is not what I do.

So, we have to realize that if someones primary motivation is to get more vegans then they may be more liberal with their recommended dietary guidelines compared to someone like me who is only trying to help those who are seriously ill, get well.

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Helpinghands » Sun May 21, 2017 7:56 pm

All this dancing around still doesn't answer the question that I asked about THIS statement:

Low-fat diets are based on an outdated understanding of nutrition that’s been largely discredited.


This isn't concerned with attracting a greater number of vegans. It clearly states that the low fat approach vegan or otherwise has been DISCREDITED and is BASED on an OUTDATED UNDERSTANDING of nutrition. When was it discredited and by whom? And if in fact it has NOT been discredited as I suspect IT HASN'T those making it must be taken to task. It would have been another matter if she had stated that reversal takes a much stronger stance on fat than simply staying healthy. But to tell the vegan community that the low fat approach has been discredited when in fact it hasn't is simply and knowingly lying. To how many people has our low fat doctors and other experts clearly faulted studies that have only reduced fat to 25 or 30 percent? Telling us and the world that the reason no improvements were seen in various diseases was because this wasn't a low fat approach. And therefore would never be successful.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby JeffN » Sun May 21, 2017 8:04 pm

Helpinghands wrote:All this dancing around still doesn't answer the question that I asked about THIS statement:

Low-fat diets are based on an outdated understanding of nutrition that’s been largely discredited.


This isn't concerned with attracting a greater number of vegans. It clearly states that the low fat approach vegan or otherwise has been DISCREDITED and is BASED on an OUTDATED UNDERSTANDING of nutrition. When was it discredited and by whom? And if in fact it has NOT been discredited as I suspect IT HASN'T those making it must be taken to task. It would have been another matter if she had stated that reversal takes a much stronger stance on fat than simply staying healthy. But to tell the vegan community that the low fat approach has been discredited when in fact it hasn't is simply and knowingly lying. To how many people has our low fat doctors and other experts clearly faulted studies that have only reduced fat to 25 or 30 percent? Telling us and the world that the reason no improvements were seen in various diseases was because this wasn't a low fat approach. And therefore would never be successful.



Having personally interacted with these people for over 20 years on professional lists on these very topics, I stand by my post.

It is sad, but sometimes those who promote their work as being based on the principles of compassion, ethics & morals often resort to tactics that are anything but, which may including making statements that aren't accurate.

Occasionally, some of this has dripped into the public sphere

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2012/08/h ... fails.html

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Sun May 21, 2017 8:56 pm

Both the pritikin program and the dr dean ornish program, after more than 10 years of proving to medicare that their programs work for reversing heart disease, are now recognized by medicare for heart disease, so obviously these low fat diets have not been discredited. What is debatable is whether low fat unrefined vegan diets (with vitamin b12 supplement) should be recommended to everyone even those who have no heart disease yet. Based on some longevity cultures like the 1949 okinawa diet which was only 6% fat and the 1950 japan diet which was only 8% fat, it is possible to recommend low fat unrefined vegan diets for all stages of the life cycle, altho such historical evidence often does not convince the mainstream. Japan was able to do low fat diets for many years so they are not really as difficult as claimed.
http://www.okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_di ... 4_434s.pdf
There are not many people funding long term studies on low fat unrefined vegan diets so it is difficult to convince the mainstream. Dr Mcdougall has 2 studies altho the mainstream will require more studies before it will be convinced :
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/ar ... 2891-13-99
https://www.drmcdougall.com/2014/07/31/ ... sis-study/
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby wade4veg » Mon May 22, 2017 12:33 am

colonyofcells wrote:Both the pritikin program and the dr dean ornish program, after more than 10 years of proving to medicare that their programs work for reversing heart disease, are now recognized by medicare for heart disease, /


I don't actually think it was proven that they "reversed" heart disease and because of that it was accepted by Medicare.
Rather I think Medicare concluded that compared to other treatments regimes, the Ornish program had favorable outcomes and costs relative to other treatment methods and programs.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Mon May 22, 2017 2:03 am

The details of why medicare decided to cover the pritikin program and dr dean ornish program seems to be :

1) positively affected the progression of coronary heart disease;
2) reduced the need for coronary bypass surgery; and,
3) reduced the need for percutaneous coronary interventions.

In addition, the program must show (also in peer-reviewed literature) that it accomplished a statistically significant reduction in 5 or more of the following measures for patients from their levels before cardiac rehabilitation services to after cardiac rehabilitation services:
1) low density lipoprotein;
2) triglycerides;
3) body mass index;
4) systolic blood pressure;
5) diastolic blood pressure; and
6) the need for cholesterol, blood pressure, and diabetes medications.
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