Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby JeffN » Mon May 22, 2017 6:33 am

wade4veg wrote:
colonyofcells wrote:Both the pritikin program and the dr dean ornish program, after more than 10 years of proving to medicare that their programs work for reversing heart disease, are now recognized by medicare for heart disease, /


I don't actually think it was proven that they "reversed" heart disease and because of that it was accepted by Medicare.
Rather I think Medicare concluded that compared to other treatments regimes, the Ornish program had favorable outcomes and costs relative to other treatment methods and programs.


I helped worked on this. You can read more about it here. It is not based on reversal

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17844&p=163689&#p163689

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Birdy » Mon May 22, 2017 9:19 am

Helping Hands,
You asked about Ginny Messina's credentials and suggested that "someone straighten her out." Well, a review of her curriculum vitae might interest you:

My Professional Experience/CV

VIRGINIA MESSINA,MPH, RD



EXPERIENCE

Nutrition Consultant, Nutrition Matters, Inc. Port Townsend, WA, 1992 to present

Consult with organizations on nutrition issues related to plant foods; write and develop newsletters, articles, and educational materials for industry, and professional and non-profit organizations.

Adjunct Assistant Professor, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA, 1997 to present

Developed and wrote content and managed production for monthly newsletter, Vegetarian Nutrition and Health Letter, published by the School of Public Health and targeted to an international audience.

Dietitian, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, D.C., 1989-1992.

Developed educational materials pertaining to plant-based diets. Edited 16-page bi-monthly vegetarian nutrition publication for consumers.

Director of Nutrition Services, George Washington University Medical Center, Washington, D.C., 1987 to 1989

Directed nutrition services for ambulatory medical center serving over 50,000 patients. Provided nutrition counseling and staff education, supervised dietitians.

Instructor, Central Michigan University, College of Human Ecology, Mt. Pleasant, Michigan, 1985 to 1987

Instructed graduate and undergraduate students majoring in dietetics, health education, and related fields. Supervised and evaluated student fieldwork activities. Courses taught include: Introductory Nutrition, Nutrition Education, Community Nutrition and Nutrition in the Lifecycle.

Food and Nutrition Specialist, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan, 1984 to 1985

Developed instructional materials for consumers and home economics professionals.

Instructor, Lansing Community College, Lansing, Michigan, 1984 to 1985

Courses taught include Vegetarian Cooking; Basic Principles of Nutrition.

Public Health Nutritionist, United States Public Health Service, Dowagiac, Michigan, 1981 to 1983

Provided patient education and staff nutrition education in rural health clinic.

EDUCATION

B.S., Home Economics, Douglass College, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ, 1978

M.P.H., Human Nutrition, School of Public Health, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, 1981

PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITIES

Member, Board of Directors, Vegfund

Member, Scientific Committee, Sixth International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, 2012-2013

Member, American Dietetic Association; Vegetarian Nutrition Dietetic Practice Group

Newsletter editorial staff, 2008 to present. Write quarterly column summarizing current nutrition research

Write fact sheets on vegan and vegetarian nutrition for consumers and dietitians, 2008 to present.

Chair of nominating committee, 2014-2015.

Wrote Continuing Education Program on Vegetarian Nutrition, on behalf of Vegetarian Nutrition DPG; published by Wolfe Rinke Associates, 2000

Co-chair of Continuing Education Committee (identified and edited newsletter articles for CE credit; 1998 and 1999)

Editor, Fact Sheets for members, 1995 to 1999

Editor, DPG newsletter, 1991 to 1993

Member, Advisory Board of VegYouth, 2013 to present.

Member, Vegetarian Advisory Board, McDonald’s Corporation, 2006-2008 (per terms of settlement, class action suit Block versus McDonald’s Corporation)

Member, Board of Advisors, PCRM, 1997 to 2012

Member, Board of Advisors, Vegetarian Resource Group, 1997 to present

FREELANCE EXPERIENCE

Columnist, National Vegan Examiner,Examiner.com., February, 2009 to present. www.examiner.com/x-5670-Vegan-Examiner.

Columnist, One Green Planet, 2011 to present. www.onegreenplanet.org/tag/virginia-messina/

Columnist Our Hen House, 2012 to present.

Wrote bi-monthly article on foods and nutrition for regional magazine Northwest, 2006-2008

Contribute articles to a variety of national publications including Family Circle, Encyclopedia Britannica, Today’s Dietitian, Veggie Life, Vegetarian Journal

Wrote section on nutrition for Healthnotes, an online food and nutrition resource for natural foods stores

Wrote regular nutrition column for Mt. Airy News, a local bi-weekly newspaper

Wrote column for “How on Earth!” a newsletter for vegetarian teens



SELECTED PRESENTATIONS

Health Effects of Legumes. 6th International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition. Loma Linda, CA (2013)

Sorting through the Science: How to Find the Best Vegan Nutrition Information. Vida Vegan Con. Portland, OR (2013)

Happy, Healthy Vegan for Life:10 Tips for Success. Vegfest presentation, various North American venues. (2013)

The Seven Habits of Healthy Vegans Vegfest presentation, various North American venues. (2011-2014)

Issues in Planning Optimal Vegan Diets: Guidelines for Health Professionals. Enhancing Health with Plant-based Nutrition. Portland, OR. (2012)

Vegan Diets: What the Experts Say About Vitamin B12, Minerals, Protein, and Essential Fats. Vegetarian Nutrition Dietetic Practice Group. Philadelphia, PA. (2012)


BOOKS AUTHORED

Never Too Late to Go Vegan: The Over-50 Guide to Adopting and Thriving on a Plant-Based Diet. Carol J. Adams, Patti Breitman and Virginia Messina. The Experiment, New York, NY. 2014

Vegan for Her: The Woman’s Guide to Being Healthy and Fit on a Plant-Based Diet. Virginia Messina and JL Fields. Da Capo Press, Cambridge, MA. 2013.

Vegan for Life: Everything You Need to Know to be Healthy and Fit on a Plant-based Diet. Jack Norris and Virginia Messina. Da Capo Press, Cambridge, MA. 2011

The Dietitian’s Guide to Vegetarian Diets: Issues and Applications, 3rd edition. Reed Mangels, Virginia Messina, Mark Messina. Jones and Bartlett Publishers, Sudbury, MA. 2010.

The Dietitians Guide to Vegetarian Diets:Issues and Applications. 2nd edition. Virginia Messina, Reed Mangels, Mark Messina. Jones and Bartlett, Sudbury, MA. 2004.

The Dietitians Guide to Vegetarian Diets: Issues and Applications. Mark Messina, Virginia Messina. Aspen Publishers, 1996.

Help! My Child Stopped Eating Meat. Carol J. Adams with Virginia Messina. Continuum Press, New York, NY. 2004.

The Convenient Vegetarian. Virginia Messina and Kate Schumann. MacMillan Press, NY. June, 1999

The Vegetarian Way. Virginia Messina and Mark Messina. Crown Books, NY. 1996

The No-Cholesterol Vegetarian Family-Style Cookbook. Virginia Messina and Kate Schumann. St. Martin’s Press, NY. 1995

The Simple Soybean and Your Health. Mark Messina and Virginia Messina. Avery Publishers, NY. 1994

The No-Cholesterol Vegetarian Barbecue Book. Kate Schumann and Virginia Messina. St. Martin’s Press, NY. 1994



SELECTED PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS

Messina V. Nutritional and health benefits of dried beans. Am J Clin Nutr. 2014. in press.

Messina M, Messina V. Soyfoods for menopausal women. American Nurse Today. In press.

Messina M, Messina VL, Jenkins, DJA. Can breast cancer patients use soyafoods to help reduce risk of CHD? Brit J Nutr. 2012 epub ahead of print

Messina M, Messina VL, Chan P. Soyfoods, hyperuricemia and gout: a review of the epidemiologic and clinical data. Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2011;20(3):347-58.

Messina V, Messina M. Soy products as sources of calcium in the diets of Chinese Americans. J Am Diet Assoc. 2010 Dec;110(12):1812-3; author reply 1813.

Messina M, Messina V. The role of soy in vegetarian diets. Nutrients, 2: 855-888, 2010.

Messina V. Vegetarian diets for children in: Handbook of Pediatric Nutrition eds: Samour, PQ and King, K. Jones and Bartlett; Sudbury, MA. 2005.

Mangels AR, Messina, V, Melina V. Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian Diets. J Am Diet Assoc 2003; 103:748-765.

Messina V, Melina V, Mangels AR. A new food guide for North American vegetarians. J Am Diet Assoc 2003; 103:771-775.

Mangels, A Reed and Messina, V. Considerations in planning vegan diets. I. Infants. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 2001;101:670-677.

Messina, V and Mangels, A Reed. Considerations in planning vegan diets. II. Children. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 2001;101:661-669.

Messina M, Messina V. Soyfoods, soybean isoflavones, and bone health: a brief overview. J Renal Nutr 2000;10: 63-68.

Messina, V. Calcium from plant foods. Today’s Dietitian 2000; 2(8):30-33,43.

Messina, V. Purely vegetarian. Today’s Dietitian 1999; 1(8): 40-44.

Messina, V. Comment: Popular perceptions of vegetarian diets: is the pendulum swinging the other way? Vegetarian Nutr: An Intl J 1998;2:37-39.

Messina, V, Burke K. Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets. J Am Diet Assoc 1997.; 97 (11): 1317-1321.

Messina, V and Messina, M. Vegetarianism and risk factors for cardiovascular disease. On the Cutting Edge. Summer 1997; 18: 34-35.

Messina M, Messina V. Nutritional implications of dietary phytochemicals. In: Dietary Phytochemicals in Cancer Prevention and Treatment. Adv Exp Med Biol 401;207-211, 1996.

Messina V, Messina MJ. Vegetables: Rating the Healthiest. The Encyclopedia Britannica, Chicago, IL 1995.

Messina MJ, Messina V. The second golden age of nutrition: phytochemicals and disease prevention. In Food Phytochemicals I: Fruits and Vegetables. The American Chemical Society, 1994.

Messina V, Messina MJ. Vegetarianism comes of age. The Encyclopedia Britannica, Chicago, IL, 1994.

Messina MJ, Messina, V. Second golden age of utrition. American Chemical Society, Proceedings on Dietary Phytochemicals, 1993.

Messina MJ, Messina V. Increasing use of soyfoods and their potential role in cancer prevention. J Am Diet Assoc 91:836-40, 1991.

Messina MJ, Messina V. Soy protein and calcium balance. Soya International 4(1):4-5, 1990.

Messina V. Facts on Fat. Soya International 4(2):4-5, 1990.

Messina MJ, Messina V. Soybeans as a food for humans. Encyclopedia of Food Science, Food Technology and Nutrition. Academic Press Limited, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich Publishers, London.

AWARDS

Award of Excellence in Service and Leadership, Vegetarian Nutrition Dietetic Practice Group, 2000

Marie Dye Fellowship recipient, 1983-1985

National Health Service Corps Scholarship recipient, 1978-1981

Graduated magna cum laude from Rutgers University

Elected to Omicron Nu National Honor Society
"The program is essentially cost and risk free." ~ Dr. John McDougall
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Mon May 22, 2017 11:59 am

People have different goals in plant based diets and for some people, losing weight is more important so some people do reduce or eliminate high fat vegan foods like nuts, seeds and avocado, since cases of deficiencies (epa/dha, zinc) caused by not eating nuts, seeds and avocado are probably rare. Dr Esselstyn seems to have made a compromise regarding flax seed and chia seed and allows these seeds as exceptions in his no nuts, no seeds diet.
Most of the recommendations of Virginia Messina are compatible with the Dr Mcdougall diet and the main differences are the Dr Mcdougall diet does not allow oil, discourages juice, does not allow fake vegan meats like isolated soy protein and seitan. There is evidence to support low fat unrefined vegan diets improve the health of people with heart disease altho this does not mean that higher fat unrefined vegan diets will not improve the health of people with heart disease.
===============
http://www.vegan.com/nutrition/
Virginia Messina's reasons for recommending a higher fat vegan diet seems to be (Dr Greger would probably agree with most of these reasons and when Dr Greger was just starting in his nutrition career, he did refer to the works of Virginia Messina) :
To meet your body’s needs, it’s important to include any of the following in your diet every day:
1 tablespoon of ground flaxseed (note that it has to be ground; otherwise you won’t absorb the ALA)
1 teaspoon of flaxseed oil
4 walnuts
1 tablespoon of walnut, hempseed, soy or canola oil
2 teaspoons of chia seeds
For example, tree nuts like almonds, cashews, walnuts, and pecans are linked to reduced risk for heart disease. Soyfoods, which are higher in fat than other legumes, are rich in isoflavones, compounds that may reduce cancer risk and might improve artery health. Extra-virgin olive oil is a unique source of certain compounds with anti-inflammatory properties. Seeds and avocados can help vegans meet their zinc requirement.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby John McDougall » Mon May 22, 2017 2:25 pm

I have a strong stand against soy foods.

Soy information is found in my April 2005 newsletter: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/ ... 0pusoy.htm

Maybe a coincidence?

Mark (Virginia Messina's husband) works closely with the soy businesses.

As least, "the fat you eat is the fat you wear."

Tofu is 50% fat.

Isolated soy protein is toxic (like soy hotdogs).

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Mon May 22, 2017 4:07 pm

The main problem with modern factory made tofu is many brands now have 0 fiber and some include isolated soy protein. I am always suspicious of refined substances that have 0 fiber. In japan, the high fiber by product of making tofu is called okara and is used in japanese cuisine. In china, okara is called tosu and often fried so also called soy crisps. It is much better to eat real soy like edamame, natto and tempeh, altho all soy is high in fat so is restricted in the Dr Mcdougall diet. Soy bean sprouts (requires cooking) are used in korea cuisine and china cuisine and might be a better idea since they look like baby vegetables. Soy bean sprouts are usually used in soups similar to mung bean sprouts. Large beans (like soy, pinto) that are sprouted or turned into bean sprouts when eaten raw can cause stomach ache. Small beans that are sprouted like mung, adzuki, garbanzo can be eaten raw. Sprouted peas and lentils can also be eaten raw. Trader Joe's used to sell pea shoots.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby anne57 » Mon May 22, 2017 4:25 pm

...
Last edited by anne57 on Mon May 06, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Helpinghands » Mon May 22, 2017 4:33 pm

Jeff and Anne, thanks, my point exactly. The article posted by you Jeff and note written by Anne pretty much says it all. She is more interested in keeping vegans, vegan than she is about their health.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Mon May 22, 2017 5:23 pm

Virginia Messina is the author of the textbook on vegetarian and vegan nutrition so she probably needs to be more conservative. Dr Greger was convinced by just 1 study of Dr Ornish and the mainstream probably needs more studies before the mainstream will be convinced. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics seems more open to the idea of low fat vegan diets reversing diseases bec their dec 2016 position paper on vegetarian diets do cite the studies of Dr Ornish and Dr Neal Barnard. Vegan nutritionist Brenda Davis has also been involved in a diabetes study in the Marshall Islands. The mainstream just needs more studies before it will be convinced. It is wiser to rely on many studies bec a few studies can have minor defects. For example, the diabetes study of Brenda Davis includes the use of fiber supplements (guar gum and psyllium). http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchi ... 8p24.shtml
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby bbq » Mon May 22, 2017 7:55 pm

Decision Memo for Intensive Cardiac Rehabilitation (ICR) Program - Benson-Henry Institute Cardiac Wellness Program (CAG-00434N)
https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/details/nca-decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=271
https://www.cms.gov/Outreach-and-Education/Medicare-Learning-Network-MLN/MLNMattersArticles/downloads/MM8894.pdf
https://www.capitalbluemedicare.com/wps/wcm/connect/prod_nws.capitalbluemedicare.com-20102/1235c476-c59c-44b2-a53d-69631787d0ac/NCD+Intensive+Cardiac+Rehab+programs.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CVID=l5KJ7UP

CMS approves disputed intensive cardiac rehab coverage for Mass General
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20140508/NEWS/305089936
The CMS has approved Medicare coverage for an intensive cardiac rehabilitation program based at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston despite criticism from two former Senate majority leaders and a former CMS official that the clinical evidence doesn't support coverage because it does not demonstrate the program reverses heart disease.

Medicare would like to save money (by all means?) for obvious reasons:

Trustees' report says Medicare will be insolvent by 2028
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160622/NEWS/160629973

Medicare Could Become Insolvent
https://medicare.net/medicare-become-insolvent/

What Do You Get for $7,200? - The Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/wellness/2001/07/24/what-do-you-get-for-7200/95d87095-7847-4841-bc51-92ff11c405cc/

However, site certification would cost $500,000 as mentioned in this video below:

https://amazinginmotion.blog/2015/10/18/healthy-lifestyle-expo-day-2-morning-session/
https://www.facebook.com/JamesBennieMD/videos/993568637402371/

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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Jeff the Chef » Tue May 23, 2017 12:34 am

colonyofcells wrote:The differences among the vegan evangelists or healthy eating evangelists can probably be explained by the target audience. For example, Rip Esselstyn targets the more mainstream audience and maybe the younger audience so he is not as strict on nuts, seeds and avocado. Dr mcdougall is stricter on soy, nuts, seeds and avocado probably bec most of his patients are obese and very sick. The mainstream nutritionists do accept that unrefined vegan diets (with b12 supplement) are healthy for all stages of the life cycle but they probably do not believe that a low fat unrefined vegan diet is needed (or optimal) for all stages of the life cycle. The dec 2016 Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics : Vegetarian Diets was authored by a vegan employee of the pro vegan PCRM, a believer in a pro vegan religion, and the vegan nutrition book writing partner of Brenda Davis.


I didn't know PCRM was a Pro-vegan religion. Barnard keeps his nutritional veganism and ethical veganism separate. He also advocates a 10% diet.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Tue May 23, 2017 1:24 am

Many activist organizations tend to avoid putting their agenda in their organization name. So PCRM does not have vegan in their name and nutritionfacts.org also does not have vegan in the name of the website even though both organizations are obviously vegan activist organizations. There are more obvious organization names like the Vegan Outreach of nutritionist Jack Norris. Nutritionist Reed Mangels seems connected with the Vegetarian Resource Group. The seventh day adventists tend to be pro vegetarian and pro vegan probably bec their founder seems to have received some revelations about healthy diets from heaven above. Dr Dean Ornish might be a lactovegetarian bec of his hindu religion.
Neal Barnard has some similarities with Virginia Messina in that both allow some vegan fake meats. Neal Barnard allows vegan fake meats for people who need transition foods and he even recommends vegan fake meats for his own family members and relatives.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Jeff the Chef » Tue May 23, 2017 3:00 am

colonyofcells wrote:Many activist organizations tend to avoid putting their agenda in their organization name. So PCRM does not have vegan in their name and nutritionfacts.org also does not have vegan in the name of the website even though both organizations are obviously vegan activist organizations. There are more obvious organization names like the Vegan Outreach of nutritionist Jack Norris. Nutritionist Reed Mangels seems connected with the Vegetarian Resource Group. The seventh day adventists tend to be pro vegetarian and pro vegan probably bec their founder seems to have received some revelations about healthy diets from heaven above. Dr Dean Ornish might be a lactovegetarian bec of his hindu religion.
Neal Barnard has some similarities with Virginia Messina in that both allow some vegan fake meats. Neal Barnard allows vegan fake meats for people who need transition foods and he even recommends vegan fake meats for his own family members and relatives.


Yes, I have some of Barnard's books. I just don't see his being an exponent of a "vegan religion."
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Tue May 23, 2017 11:37 am

For PCRM and Neal Barnard, the health argument is unfortunately not enough in the goal of converting people to vegan. I looked at the videos (many hours) of the discussions for the 2015 diet guide for americans and it seemed to me that the best that the PCRM and Dr Greger could do was to argue that red meat and processed meats cause cancer, which falls short if you want to convert people to vegan.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby Jeff the Chef » Tue May 23, 2017 3:07 pm

colonyofcells wrote:For PCRM and Neal Barnard, the health argument is unfortunately not enough in the goal of converting people to vegan. I looked at the videos (many hours) of the discussions for the 2015 diet guide for americans and it seemed to me that the best that the PCRM and Dr Greger could do was to argue that red meat and processed meats cause cancer, which falls short if you want to convert people to vegan.


I don't see Barnard using health to sell veganism. I see his using veganism to sell health. And I think he does a great job. Yes, he's an ethical vegan, and he's done a great job there too, in particular with animals used in medical school.

To clarify, it's Vesanto Melina who is a believer in a pro-vegan religion, not PCRM? I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
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Re: Is Doctor McDougall aware of this?

Postby colonyofcells » Tue May 23, 2017 3:34 pm

http://www.eatrightpro.org/~/media/eatr ... -diet.ashx
The dec 2016 Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics : Vegetarian Diets was authored by Susan Levin (a vegan employee of the pro vegan PCRM), Winston Craig (a believer in a pro vegan religion the seventh day adventists), and Vesanto Melina (the vegan nutrition book writing partner of Brenda Davis). It is probably debatable whether PETA ethical vegan activists and PCRM health vegan activists can be considered religions. There are religions with no gods such as theravada buddhism (does believe in reincarnation) and Ethical Culture Society (no beliefs in the supernatural). Many health vegans started out as ethical vegans and this includes Susan Levin, Vesanto Melina, Brenda Davis and most vegans include ethics, health and the environment as 3 main reasons for being vegan. Virginia Messina seems to prefer to be an ethical vegan rather than a health vegan. The old writing partner of Virginia Messina was Jack Norris and Jack Norris seems more open to mentioning the possible health benefits of a vegan diet based on some studies.
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