Will One High Fat Meal Hurt Me?

[Mom+Me]

I, too, have not only seen other discussions about Dr. Lisle suggesting aiming to be a B, but also saw a video of him saying it. Now don't quote me on those being his exact words, but something to the effect of being okay with not striving for perfectionism because if one does, it can backfire when they end up not eating perfectly.

As previously mentioned in this thread, when I read about and heard him say that, I did not take it that Dr. Lisle was condoning eating off-plan or purposely making feast days or anything like that, but more so if you accidentally have a meal out that has oil or you have one of Aunt Betty's Christmas cookies, it's okay because you don't have to be an A+ student.

My takeway was that you should give yourself grace. I think it all depends on a person's personality.

I believe 100% that the best way for all humans to eat is the McDougall Plan!! And when I discovered Dr. Lisle's teaching on this A/B thing, it surprised me, especially since he is linked with Dr. McDougall by being a speaker at his various events. But again, I think Dr. Lisle means it to help those who struggle with their "short comings" and feelings of failure when they have not eaten perfectly.

I actually find it "funny" that this entire topic (1 fatty meal and the A/B thing) has come up as I have recently been mulling this over and was considering starting a thread titled "Potential Pitfalls of Perfectionism".

As someone who was introduced to The McDougall Plan around 30 years ago and has McDougalled at various times throughout these 30 years (that's a whole 'nother story), I have been thinking how, in the early 1990's when I was first McDougalling, whether I accidentally ate an oily meal at a restaurant despite my best attempts or purposely had one small serving of dessert at a buffet, I ate it and moved on--just kept chugging along on my McDougalling journey.

But in recent years, being older and having read the data for myself (not just second hand from my mom reading excerpts to me), I have found myself struggling with times after months and months of 100% adherence, if I accidentally or purposely have one off-plan item/meal--even just a couple mouthfulls, it bothers me. I feel like, "How could I have eaten that when I know how bad it was for me?!". Or when I read others, like f1jim being on a more recent cruise and it being difficult navigating the food (it sounded to me that he probably ended up eating some oil), how does one manage that?

I used to always just chuck it up as a learning experience and I'll do better next time. But now, all too often, any deviance can and has led to downward spirals because I have been perfect for so, so long that when I am not, it bothers me and because I know of the detrimental effects, yet then I sometimes get derailed.

Anyone else experience this? Any suggestions? Another for instance: in my early years of McDougalling, for my birthday meal, I often chose a vegan frozen Amy's meal as my birthday "treat". But now, I can't even enjoy that without thinking "I shouldn't eat this; it has oil!" and "This isn't really a treat, it's not life/health promoting because of the oil (even though loaded with veggies and usually beans)!". I want to eat 100% compliantly 100% of the time, but learn how to deal with those times it may be 90% say 2% out of an entire year.

By the way, this may be where gracezw read about Dr. Lisle's A/B: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54512&p=554129&hilit=dr+lisle+grade+b#p554129

[gracezw]

No human can do 100% compliance 100% of the time. No human can be that perfect.

I practice self compassion. I am careful not to be too hard on myself. That is what Mom+Me has said nicely–----- “give yourself grace.”

While being compliant 100% of the time is impossibly perfect, being 90% or higher compliant of the time would be A. That means only going off-plan 37 days out of a year(365 x 0.1). Mom+Me sounds like she can do 98% -- she may eat off-plan only up to 8 days in a year. Being 80% or higher compliant of the time would be B. That means only going off-plan 73 days of a years(365x 0.2).

While being 100% compliant on plan is perfect, it is more difficult to decide what is being 90% or higher/being an A, or what is being 80% or higher/being a B, and where to draw the line.

I eat at home all the time, except once a week when I go grocery shopping at a few stores, because it takes me about four long hours, I eat fruits I just bought at the parking lots.

At home I eat separately from my husband or son. I don’t go eat at any restaurant. And I don’t like to travel. I prepare each of my food items separately, measure each food item either by weight in grams or by the numbers of mouthfuls, and log them everyday on my computer. I have been doing this logging since 3/18/19. Thank you for the idea and the inspiration! As I also practice Buddhist teachings and meditation, doing all this is a nice meditative and protective healthful daily routine. It was time consuming at the beginning. Now it is really easy and fast.

I have been increasingly strengthening myself on all the 6 categories of Dr. Lisle’s personalities. I am not perfect, but my compliance level is pretty high. I am either A or B, depending on how you define them. I still have my own struggles, challenges, cravings and overeating problems, and will always have them. It will be a lifelong practice.

After thinking about it a lot, Dr. Lisle’s message seems to be this to me: eat as the best as we reasonably can while acknowledging that we cannot be perfect. It depends on whether we have serious health problems --- the more serious, the higher compliance is recommended. It also depends on what kind of off-plan food items we eat, how much, or how many measurable grams and mouthfuls they are, and how quickly we go back to be on-plan.

[Grammy Ginger]

[quote="gracezw"]

No human can do 100% compliance 100% of the time. No human can be that perfect.[/quote]

This is absolutely untrue. No human is perfect in all things, but humans can be perfect in some things. Or maybe I'm an alien.

[f1jim]

I agree with Grammy Ginger.
None of us is perfect but in certain areas we can be quite persistent. I don't know thousands of excellent compliance individuals but I do know dozens. They enjoy the meals and are not seriously tempted to eat off plan. We actually enjoy the challenge of eating this way. We find it quite easy to follow this diet, consistently.
I still would like to help those that see it as impossible. PJK and others please specify where you find it difficult. I don't live in a produce desert or extremely remote area. Maybe I am missing something?
f1jim

[gracezw]

Can you be 100% compliant 100% of the time for your whole life? I am talking about life-long practice.

No human can do 100% compliance 100% of the time. No human can be that perfect.

This is absolutely untrue. No human is perfect in all things, but humans can be perfect in some things. Or maybe I'm an alien.

[gracezw]

Jim, I am asking you the same question. Do you know anyone who does 100% compliance 100% of time for their whole lives, with no even one bite of an off-plan food item?

I agree with Grammy Ginger.
None of us is perfect but in certain areas we can be quite persistent. I don't know thousands of excellent compliance individuals but I do know dozens. They enjoy the meals and are not seriously tempted to eat off plan. We actually enjoy the challenge of eating this way. We find it quite easy to follow this diet, consistently.
I still would like to help those that see it as impossible. PJK and others please specify where you find it difficult. I don't live in a produce desert or extremely remote area. Maybe I am missing something?
f1jim

[brec]

Can you be 100% compliant 100% of the time for your whole life? I am talking about life-long practice.

Life-long starting when -- at birth?

There are some, like me, who find 99.9% compliance pretty easy. (If the difference between 100 and 99.9 is significant to you, just ignore this reply.) I say 99.9% without doing any calculations. Over the course of almost eight years since I started, I've perhaps unknowingly eaten some added oil in a restaurant half a dozen times, and deliberately eaten a bite -- literally one bite -- of off-plan food half a dozen times for social reasons.

What makes it easy for me is that I'm thoroughly persuaded that my life depends on it. I've also steadily expanded my menu of dinner meals to find new things that I enjoy. My breakfasts (oatmeal++) and lunches (big 7-ingredient salad) are constant, however, with things I don't tire of.

[f1jim]

In fact, I maintain it's easier the way Brec does it than to cheat now and then. It's way too easy for me to keep eating poorly once I cross that line. It also keeps my tastebuds in check not craving the garbage foods.
I stay compliant because I have zero willpower and would just cave if I ever start. For me, staying at compliance is much, much easier. I think everyone in my life has heard my going on and on about my eating so they expect me to be a hard a@@ about it.
No surprises for those around me after all these years. Only some occasional sadness from those that think I'm depriving myself, somehow. Glad I don't see it that way. In fact several of us that eat this way love to joke with each other about the deprived life we live!
f1jim

[gracezw]

Thank you Jim, for sharing this. But I really don't believe that you can do 100% compliance 100% of the time for life. You travel more frequently than I do. It is just a lot harder not to have any accidents nor any temptations when you are on the road. If it is difficult for me, I don't see how it would be easy for you.

In fact, I maintain it's easier the way Brec does it than to cheat now and then. It's way too easy for me to keep eating poorly once I cross that line. It also keeps my tastebuds in check not craving the garbage foods.
I stay compliant because I have zero willpower and would just cave if I ever start. For me, staying at compliance is much, much easier. I think everyone in my life has heard my going on and on about my eating so they expect me to be a hard a@@ about it.
No surprises for those around me after all these years. Only some occasional sadness from those that think I'm depriving myself, somehow. Glad I don't see it that way. In fact several of us that eat this way love to joke with each other about the deprived life we live!
f1jim

[gracezw]

There are at least two levels of perfection as I can see it. The easier level is starting when one started this WOE. The harder level is starting it at birth.

Yes, you are certainly more human being 99.9% than being 100% perfect. I am now very interested in knowing more about you--- why have you been doing this so effortlessly, while most people cannot?

I believe that a very big part, but not all, of my life depends on it. So I don't strive to be 99.9%. I give myself a range of 85-95%.

Can you be 100% compliant 100% of the time for your whole life? I am talking about life-long practice.

Life-long starting when -- at birth?

There are some, like me, who find 99.9% compliance pretty easy. (If the difference between 100 and 99.9 is significant to you, just ignore this reply.) I say 99.9% without doing any calculations. Over the course of almost eight years since I started, I've perhaps unknowingly eaten some added oil in a restaurant half a dozen times, and deliberately eaten a bite -- literally one bite -- of off-plan food half a dozen times for social reasons.

What makes it easy for me is that I'm thoroughly persuaded that my life depends on it. I've also steadily expanded my menu of dinner meals to find new things that I enjoy. My breakfasts (oatmeal++) and lunches (big 7-ingredient salad) are constant, however, with things I don't tire of.

[JeffN]

Thanks Brec and Jim.

If anyone follows these boards long enough, and this way of life, they will find the comments of Jim and Brec are very typical of those who are successful.

To see this in action, all one has to do is read the posts in theese forums or in the MWL Weigh-in Threads this year. The reason is, staring in January this year, we switched it over to a behavior based model. While the participants still report their weight, the monthly thread is now based on the 10-Points of the MWL program, which are all healthy behaviors. Follow the behaviors and the results will follow.

Our facilitator Mark (and Wild Goose) has/have done an outstanding job of keeping everyone focused on the behaviors and not the weight. At each weekly check in, the participants evaluate their success based on their compliance with the recommended behaviors (the 10-Pt Checklist). Which guidelines were they successful at and which ones need more focus. This is so much more valuable then just reporting a weight and trying to guess why its up or down.

It seems the common denominator is the more compliant to the behaviors they are, the better their results. No exception. And, when they are not losing or gaining, they can see which behaviors need more attention. Sometimes they may need a guideline clarified and sometimes they may need support in figuring out how to apply it.

One thing you don’t see, is anyone striving to be less compliant, or encouraging anyone else to be less compliant. Sure, be OK with where you are and how well you are doing, but keep focusing on moving the behaviors in the right direction in ways that you can.

Most people who find their way here to this program, have serious health issues and a compromised quality of life. Changing much of your life, especially your food related behaviors, is not easy, especially in this world. But to those who find their way here, making the change is often easier then continuing to suffer.

In Health
Jeff

[Drew_ab]

For me personally at 9.5 years following this WOE, it's easier to be 99%+ compliant than any version less than that. If you wanted to look at it on a calorie per calorie basis, it might even be that 99.9%+ of the calories that pass my lips are on plan. With the exception of the early days when I was still learning how to navigate social situations, family meals, restaurants, and so forth, the level of compliance is absolutely that high and maintained with fidelity.

I find it liberating since there is literally no cognitive energy invested in deciding to deviate or not. It's easier to quit smoking altogether, to avoid bars where people smoke, and to avoid temptation (i.e. walking into a gas station with cigarettes showcased to sell), than to have a single cigarette each day and still venture to those places. The same could be said for alcoholics. It's easier to quick altogether than to have a drink now and again while entering situations with a probability of triggering a relapse.

Abstinence is the ultimate compliance tool and I highly recommend it for MOST people. There are some exceptions I am sure. My mom is an example of this. She is someone who has informally practiced CR her whole life, while going plant-based a few years ago to follow a CR-ON (calorie restriction optimal nutrition) plan. The reason I say this, is that she can literally have a single bite of a dessert maybe twice a month. It's rare to see this in our food toxic world, but for her it works and she is in excellent health in her 60's.

[brec]

... I am now very interested in knowing more about you--- why have you been doing this so effortlessly, while most people cannot?

I believe that a very big part, but not all, of my life depends on it. So I don't strive to be 99.9%. I give myself a range of 85-95%. ...

Before answering, I'm reminded to add a couple of things that should have been in my original reply.

(1) I forgot several instances of intentional off-plan eating. But even those were not pig-outs. They were eating snack chips with oil added a few times a year -- but reduced oil compared to normal chips. And once a month or so back in the days when there were movie theaters, I ate a medium popcorn, no butter, in the movie -- but only at a Century/Cinemark theater where they use canola oil—low in saturated fat—to cook the popcorn. So I hereby reduce my estimate of compliance to 99.75%

(2) When I say that my compliance is due to my belief that my life depends on it, that is not strictly true in the sense of 100% compliance. You can infer this from the previous paragraph.I.e., once in a while, some reduced-fat chips or canola-cooked popcorn. Plus rare minor unintentional ingestion of small amounts of oil. But no traditional pizza or burgers. No animal products. I don't really believe that a condiment-amount of meat occasionally would kill me. But the key thing for me is that it's much, much, much (much!) easier to do 99.75% than 85-95%. With the latter, you're always thinking about whether to cheat and where you are with respect to the border! The way I do it, the only thing I have to think about is on-plan shopping and cooking.

Now to respond to your question... I did not start eating this way to lose weight. Persuaded by Dr. Esselstyn's work, I started as an alternative to a strongly-recommended double coronary bypass operation. Strictly speaking, I'm an "Esselstynian" rather than a "McDougaller." But I don't think the difference is significant.

Now I'm outta here to arrive at Walmart for a grocery order pick-up appointment. Let me know if you have further questions for me.

[glo]

I can only speak to my own experience. Over and over, I have gone on “program” and my blood sugars get better. Then, since I’ve been so good and had such good results and I can see absolutely that Dr. McDougall’s way of eating is helping me...
ahhh, now I can relax and just take a bite or two. Then three and four, etc. And before I know it, I’m back in my old habits. Eventually back to the JUNK food that has led me to Type 2 Diabetes.
So, for me personally... I know I need to stick strictly to the program.
Why go on and off, over and over — having the same result. How crazy is that?
By now, I should remember the definition of the word I N S A N I T Y. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Will it happen again? Will I slip again ... probably. But ... I will NOT give up. I know Dr. McDougall’s program will help me.
It’s not easy for this “food addict.” Just one bite can trigger my cravings!
And, OH I feel so much better on program!!! — Glo
P.S,
I truly admire those who can stick strictly to the program. Kudos!

[gracezw]

Drew, Brec and Glo, thank you for your responses. I will reply later soon.

I reviewed my daily logging on my computers. One of my computers kept crashing and I kept reopening the file and searching through it.

I decided on "no oil" starting 6/1/19. I had bites with oil for 9 times for the rest of 2019. Starting 1/1/2020 until now, I had only one time eating part of a commercial vegan food item with oil of total fat of 6 grams, ingredients being sweet white rice, sweet black rice, chestnuts, sugar and oil. I have saved the package information for review, as I always do for all commercial foods I increasingly eat much less often.

It was bought for my neighbor across the street to try plant foods from my grocery stores. I have been introducing her to McDougalling. I was pleased to hear that she had read a lot and recently bought a book written by Dr. McD! She has been taking small steps. Last she told me that she had been eating vegan for 3 days and had gaining confidence that she could do it!

She ate 3 out of 6 pieces, and returned the rest to me. I could have my son eat it(he likes it), or just thrown it out, to avoid eating oil. But I was weak and ate it.

I agree that it is easier not to eat any oil, as I have to save and record all the above information.