Weston A. Price Foundation

[Early]

Stan, have you read the posts in this thread and gone to the links? What you call the Price "opinion" is contrary to research-based facts that are almost universally accepted. That calls the Price "opinion" into question and makes one wonder why they are promoting what sure seems to be propaganda. When that happens, it almost always means some entity is paying to have misinformation disseminated because doing so helps them financially.

Best to all,

Early

[yvie]

Hmm, I tend to eat quite a lot of animal fat dairy (150-200g of pure fat a day) and never complained. I never had any problem; in fact most of my health problems disappeared since I did that for the first time 9 years ago. Don't be so sad, it is quite possible that there are more "right" ways than "one" way.

Regards,
Heretic

Hi Heretic,

I'm so happy for you that eating 1/2 pound of fat a day has made you feel very healthy. Perhaps eating twice as much would make you even feel healthier!

If you feel strongly that "animal fat is where it's at," why would you bother to spend your time on a board that supports a low fat plant based diet?

I don't think that you will convince too many of us to embrace animal fat, and I don't think we'll convince you that plant food is the way to go. You keep saying you are here to show there are other ways to eat that are healthy, but I don't think you are too interested in embracing the ways suggested here.

I tend to spend my time on boards with people who share my philosophy. While I don't agree with everyone's views on this message board, I do agree most of the time with the basic premises discussed. I'm surprised you would bother to waste your time here.

Yvie

[f1jim]

Heretic is a confirmed and dedicated meat and fat proponent. He has promulgated his ideas on several of the boards supporting low fat, plant-based diets. There is near zero forum support for any following his ideas of diet. For those mildly interested in his preferred diet see this link:

http://homodiet.netfirms.com/

Why is he here? The Diet Debate board on WebMD is virtually dead except for a few stragglers. His name tells it all. He is not happy unless he is stirring the pot. He takes a better than average ability to find the odd or unusual bit of information and turn it into an all encompassing philosophy. Perhaps his diet is responsible for his decision to convince people of his ideas whether they want to or not!!! Do any of you feel like going to the Atkins forum and trying to argue with the people there? Feel like pointing out the studies that show the danger they are in? Probably you do but you don't. It's poor form and shows a lack of etiquette and maturity. Perhaps it's the hormones in the meat!!!
f1jim

[bob2200]

There was an interesting presenter at the VegSummerfest in Johnstown PA 2 weeks ago that suggested that maybe those people feeling better on a high-fat diet are very gluten-intolerant and the cutting out of gluten carbs makes them feel better, even though it is otherwise a terrible diet. Just a thought.

[Heretic]

Stan, have you read the posts in this thread and gone to the links? What you call the Price "opinion" is contrary to research-based facts that are almost universally accepted. That calls the Price "opinion" into question and makes one wonder why they are promoting what sure seems to be propaganda. When that happens, it almost always means some entity is paying to have misinformation disseminated because doing so helps them financially.

I read their articles. Contrary to what you say many (but probably not all) their articles and programmes are supported by science and studies. You may find appropriate papers referenced under most of their articles. They are quite meticulous about referencing. If you are trying to say that WAP is not science based you have got to show a specific example and tell us why exactly you think that, whatever it is, is not supported. It may well be, not everybody has to be right all the time but you cannot generalize that they are always wrong.

Re: what am I doing here?

I was invited by F1 Jim to post in the AGE thread (Jeff Novick) and then somehow stuck for a few days to see what happens. I am not "promoting" any diet here (if you read my message you will realize that it is the case) , just enaging in some conversations, to sound what are you like as a group of people. I will only tell you about my diet if you specifically ask. Do you really want to know? Are you genuinly curious, or do you rather prefer to "throw stones"? Was that question about doubling my animal fat consumption serious? Of course I could not double it since 200g is already 1700kcalories which is close to the maximum of my daily intake which is typically 1500-1800kcal (more only when I do a heavy physical work)

Since you started this thread about WAP, I thought somebody ought to represent a point of view of the other side, otherwise this whole thread would make as much sense as clapping with one hand. Would you like me to respond more on the subject of Weston A. Price Foundation and their ideas?

Stan (Heretic)

[Joe927]

You are welcome to post and debate here. But you must be willing to take some abuse, especially if you are in any way invasive about it. You are on foreign territory here, and you are welcome, but you are a guest.

I do predict however that you will bore of this forum soon enough due to your inability to stir up any real trouble. I hope this is not the case. I hope you will actually remain and discuss issues. But you are dealing with some of the most measured and calm minded forum posters here.

For those of you who have been here for a while, I would urge you to remain measured and reasonable in your responses. Debate issues if you wish, but i would prefer to see the personal attacks kept to a minimum.

...my 2 cents

[Early]

Stan Heretic,

Who is the "you" in the first paragraph of your most recent post?

From the content of that post, it doesn't sound as if you really have read the posts and links in the thread.

In your final paragraph, it seems you're saying you post just for the sake of disagreeing rather than actually having something valuable to say.

And yes, I would like to read whatever information you have about the Price foundation.

Best to all,

Early

[Melinda]

Occasionally I look at your posts, Heretic, but lately I just skip over them. We are posting here because we have eaten a meat and dairy laden diet for most of our lives, done our research for what works for us, and have decided to change to a low fat vegan diet. It seems many boards have people who just want to disagree - that is fine, but eventuaully your posts will just take up unread space.

[momof4]

Occasionally I look at your posts, Heretic, but lately I just skip over them.

I agree. It usually takes a while to see what the intentions of a new poster really are, and then it's obvious whether it's worthwhile to post responses. I enjoy discussions with people who really care, but I don't care to debate my choices with anyone, especially someone who has nothing better to do--and what's worse, he thinks he's doing us a favor by presenting the other side when we're already aware of it or know where to find it.

[Lacey]

Occasionally I look at your posts, Heretic, but lately I just skip over them.

I agree. It usually takes a while to see what the intentions of a new poster really are, and then it's obvious whether it's worthwhile to post responses. I enjoy discussions with people who really care, but I don't care to debate my choices with anyone, especially someone who has nothing better to do--and what's worse, he thinks he's doing us a favor by presenting the other side when we're already aware of it or know where to find it.

I have started skipping them as well. For over 50 years I have been told how to eat. The children I teach receive that same propaganda from the meat and dairy people as I did when I was in school. My own children get lectured by their doctors for not drinking their milk, and they have been handed literature that is pure advertising from the dairy council. A doctor my son worked with last summer was convinced that the Weston-Price Foundation had the right diet for me, and, even though he claimed to be interested in the science behind human diets, he had never even heard of The China Study, let alone Drs. McDougall, Fuhrman, or Esselstyn. Every time I turn on the food programs on television I am told that EVOO is healthy oil and good for my heart and that we should all be eating fatty fish. I am at an age now where I am starting to see friends starting to have very serious health problems as a result of their diet and sadly some are dying at a very young age and others will soon follow. I watch the way they eat. I watch the diseases they get. And I think that people who eat high fat, high meat, and/or high dairy diets are ticking time bombs. When I ate animal foods I had asthma, allergies, debilitating joint pain and I was overweight. My time here is limited and I have better things to do than read posts telling me that a high fat, high meat, and/or high dairy diet (raw or otherwise) is beneficial. Almost everyone who has ever questioned my diet IRL has felt they had the right, maybe even the duty, to convince me that I was wrong. After 30 years of being veg*n it just gets old. Most of the time that I do spend online is spent researching diet and illness issues on sites like Pubmed. Others might feel differently. Others might see this as a chance to debate. That is great. I'll skip over those posts though. My own health and the science I read keep supporting a plant-based low fat diet and this is the only place I can come to discuss this type of eating as no one I know IRL eats this way. Sometimes it seems that the whole world thinks I am wrong and this is the one place I can go where I don't feel like I have to defend the way I eat.

[f1jim]

I also understand your need to have a place where like-minded people can share resources, ask questions, and swap a few recipes. It doesn't stop any of us that want to engage in debate from finding those places best suited for it. And boy can I relate to the daily debate with family, friends, co-workers, and acquaintances that wish to convince me their "diet-of-the-month" is the perfect solution to my heart disease. This forum, like the WebMD Ornish forum used to be, gets us away from a lot of that negativity and temptation. We all run across studies that seem to invalidate our choices for diet and lifestyle....The research community gets a lot of funding from the Milk advisory Board, The Egg Board, The Dairy Council, the Pork Producers, etc. Their studies purport to show the "healthfulness" of their products. Their studies fly in the face of the work of those we choose to follow here. It's a lot like arguing religion. One has to find ones path and be comfortable with it. I sense Heretic might be a tad uncomfortable with his current path and this is his way of strengthening his "faith." So be it. Just don't pass flyers out in someone elses church!!! It's really bad form. If you are really in need of a Heretic fix I suggest a visit to WebMD's Diet Debate Forum. It could use some new blood. Perhaps some with a lot less cholesterol!!!!
F1jim

[Heretic]

Re: Who is the "you" in the first paragraph of your most recent post?

This was for you Early. Are you going to corroborate your general criticism of Weston A. Price foundation and explain which particular ideas of theirs are supposed to be contradicted by science and why?

For the other ("you" plural) people on this thread: it's hard to respond to your posts since you seem to be focusing mostly on my motives or conspiracies (Egg/Dairy Boards, Pork Producers etc) rather than nutrition. I am not interested and am going to ignore your messages of that kind. I am also not going to discuss your conspiracy theories unless you have a specific proof or at least some facts to corroborate them. I would be more interested if you discussed some specific issues related to medical science and nutrition related to your diet (or other) rather than "how bad is Heretic".

Stan (Heretic)

[Mrs. Doodlepunk]

Heretic, I'm interested in seeing some of your numbers. Have you had your lipid panel, HgA1c or fasting insulin and glucose done recently? I'm really concerned for your health, eating so much fat. Did you adopt this diet to help a particular problem or concern?

[f1jim]

He very badly wants to ignore the question of why he is here and wants to get on with the debate. Ignoring the fact that this is the wrong venue for that. Here we have a forum that does encourage questions about nutrition, but under the banner of SUPPORTING those trying this diet and lifestyle plan. This isn't a place to wage debates about whether a McDougall diet is healthy as we have already made that decision!! Why does he want to ignore that this is not a debate forum? Because then it comes back to why he is doing this!!! And then, in perfect circular reasoning, he doesn't want to discuss it. He SAYS he wants to discuss the particulars about the Weston A. Price foundation, but that is his foot in the door to start debates on why his particular adopted nutrition method is best. Gee, really clever, Heretic. I think you will find less sympathetic ears here and a better sense of what you are up to. Perhaps this even feeds your "martyr" complex further, but shows the ability of the people here to sniff out intellectually dishonest motives. Ask yourself...Why are you here?
f1jim

[Early]

Heretic, I think you must have me confused or conflated with somebody else. This is the only statement I posted regarding Price's claims being in disagreement with others': "What you call the Price 'opinion' is contrary to research-based facts that are almost universally accepted."

Research shows and the great majority of people believe thru observation that a cloudless sky is blue. Would you argue that point?

I was originally attracted to McDougall's books because, unlike many other diet writers at the time, he backed up every claim he made by citing clinical studies or similar authoritative sources. He claims were not anecdotal. Every chapter in his first book had 50, 60 or 70 clinical-study, research-or-the-like references at the end, each noted in the text. That made him credible and his conclusions persuasive.

Similarly, some of the Price foundation treatises I've read are well-referenced. I haven't examined every reference, but another forum member said she has and found that every reference supported vegan/vegetarian conclusions rather than Price's.

I find an odd tone in some of the Price foundation writing. It sometimes sounds a little wacko. It doesn't engender trust. It makes me suspicious of the writers' motives.

The American Cake Association says, "Eat three cakes a day."

You offered to post information about the Price foundation. You haven't done that. You seem to be spoiling for a fight. Offer your information and let's see what the forum members think of it.

Best to all,

Early