The Behavioral Path to MWL Success - March 2022 Group

[Noella]

MWL Check List for 3/18/2022
In a rush this week. No bad food choices—I do think I am eating too much but will try to focus on this issue this week. Am I hungry? Am I tired? Am I thirsty? Am I anxious or angry? My goal is to ask myself these questions before, during, and after eating to see if I can tell the difference!

Hi Josietheschnauzer,
I can relate to this! I don't understand why I sometimes overindulge and I like your idea to ask a few questions. I want to try that, too. Here is another question that I could ask myself: Am I bored? I don't think I have been paying enough attention to MWL guideline #9

MWL Checklist for ..March 18, 2022...I like to invite people to stay with us...Feeding people seems to be inherently dangerous for me - except with my husband. Anyone able to relate to this problem? Carol

Hi Carol,
I can relate to this problem! We have entertained several times over the past week, and each time I had trouble ensuring there is suitable MWL food for me and additional non-MWL food for our guests. It's a lot of extra planning, shopping, prepping and cooking. I decided to bake a non-MWL dessert to serve after a MWL-compliant dinner. I thought I could successfully mix, bake, decorate, and serve dessert without eating any of it myself. I completed the mixing, baking, and decorating part without difficulty. The struggle came when I served it: the flood gates to the pleasure trap opened. I tasted some... and then a bit more... You would think I learned my lesson, but I repeated this 'making-a-dessert- for guests' three more times in the past week with the same outcome each time. I have been in denial about this until I read your question: "Can anyone relate to this problem?" Entertaining is definitely easier if house guests don't stay too long and if meals are mostly MWL compliant.

Best regards,
Noella

[VegSeekingFit]

1 Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit.
Yes. I mainly ate salad this week as a preload (for B, L, D), but also used fruit or soup a few times each. Various raw veggies are stored in refrigerator for easy grabbing. Made a pot of Jeff soup without starch which is delicious. Also, have a selection of fresh and frozen fruits.

2 Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches.
Choose fruit for dessert.
Yes.
*I switched out my standard oatmeal with fruit for breakfast back to a potato waffle and a bit of smashed beans with fruit. Wanted to change to more savory, but also was thinking that I will need in near future a morning meal that I can consume a bit faster -- as will likely need to return to the office shortly (for limited # of days). Also, reminded myself that I can switch between days and don't ALWAYS have to eat a string of the same breakfast....
* For lunch and dinner, I usually have one meal with a starchy soup center (sometimes with a bit of extra rice / potato) and one 50/50 plate (generally with rice, beans or potato, beans) and some delicious roasted or raw veggies and fruit.



3 Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them.
Yes.

4 Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood).
YES, of course.

5 Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy).
YES!!!!

6 Eliminate any added oil.
Yes!

7 Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes, puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit.
YES!!!!

8 Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages).
Yes.

9 Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself.
Yes.
I continue to be mindful to not let myself get hungry, which can come on fast and furious. This week, I snacked 4 times on a few slices of roasted potato when I began to feel hunger (maybe "less" hunger than I would use to trigger a meal).
I think that this has really helped me to crawl out of the 5/7 ditch.


10 Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking).
Yes.
FINALLY!!! Nicer weather!!! Ditched the hiking boots and some of the fleece!!! Got in 7/7 daily walks - roughly an hour each.
* Met my step goal

Victories, comments, concerns, questions:
* I have continued to stay free of problem 5/7 items and feel more in control of my choices
* It's been 19 days since I consumed any of these. I am working to make that a bigger number of days, but trying not to feel pressure toward perfection which may not set my mind up best for long-term success. Taking it one bite at a time...
* It takes a lot of mental energy to remove self from the Pleasure Trap. I'm hoping to avoid that trap in the future (but its potential always lurks).
* Will be looking into additional coping mechanisms to help overcome future hurdles.
* I feel lighter on my feet when walking... it may just be joy at actually enjoying the weather...
* Weight is same as last week.

Thank you, Mark, for your awesome support and feedback. Your responses to all participants always include important information that we can all take forward on our journeys.

Hope that everyone has a fantastic first week of Spring! Best wishes on moving forward with your goals. Onward...

Cheers,
Stephanie

[Mark Cooper]

The window for reporting this week's behavioral results has officially closed.

The remainder of my replies and the weekly summary will follow.

[Mark Cooper]

George Ohwell - TEN more YESes this week! Congratulations on maintaining the pattern of behavior recommended for MWL for eight weeks! I think it makes sense to just stick with the program and see what happens, as you describe. Speaking for myself, I've been behaving in accordance with MWL for 5+ years, and for the majority of that time I've maintained a BMI near the lower end of the healthy range, without any modifications to the MWL checklist (the only exception to that was a brief period during and immediately following a hospitalization, when I dropped into the underweight category - no problems since that was resolved). It may not be an issue that even arises.

carwex - Hang in there, Carol! Being back on track and feeling better right now is what is most important, right? Managing guests and cooking for other people can definitely present challenges to our adherence. Spend a little time reviewing and reflecting on those 2 weeks: what was different about week 1 that made it easier to navigate? Did something about the context, situation or routine change in week 2 to precipitate the "slips"? What might you do differently in the future? (Certainly, arriving at a length of stay for houseguests that feels comfortable and manageable for you seems reasonable.) Personally, I tend to just prepare meals that satisfy the MWL guidelines for those I am entertaining; over the years, I have narrowed in on a few dishes that are adherent, but also feel suitable for visitors - Jeff's Lasagna is one example that has been a hit for me. With time, further experience, and some trial and error, this will start to feel easier and less "dangerous", I would expect. Keep at it!

Noella - The areas you have highlighted to focus upon seem right on target to me. Kudos! I can really empathize with the particular "flavor" of the Pleasure Trap you are feeling; dried fruits are DEFINITELY a trigger food for me, which makes some sense given what Jeff relates in A Date With Disaster: The Pleasure Trap of Whole Natural Foods. Know that if you continue to eat the recommended foods, in the recommended fashion, cravings will fade and you'll be liberated once again. You will get there.

squealcat - I think you are taking away a useful view from your self-assessment, Marilyn; your current pattern of behavior is producing the current point of equilibrium (which, it is important to acknowledge, is still at a lower point than it was in the past, with still older patterns of behavior, right?). To lower that point of equilibrium will require moving ever closer to the pattern of behavior described by the MWL 10-Point Checklist. Usually, the essential key to avoiding troublesome foods is to ALWAYS have appealing, enjoyable adherent foods available and ready. Of course, anything you can do to make it difficult (or impossible) to reach for non adherent foods can only make adherence feel easier. You know WHAT to do, so it may be a matter of gradually building a sustainable, comfortable routine that can deliver you an adherent meal at any given moment when hunger is felt. Practice makes perfect.

josietheschnauzer - Nice, Elsa! 10/10 and ELEVEN weeks adhering to the MWL 10-Point Checklist! Best wishes pursuing answers to the questions you present; I'm certainly VERY interested to know what you discover, so, if you don't mind, please do share.

VegSeekingFit - Woo-hoo! "Problem-free" and 19 days on track, Stephanie! Well done. The energy investment to extricate oneself from the Pleasure Trap in no joke, right? I will say that with continuing practice, time, and experience it does all start to feel easier, and significantly less fraught with portent. Light on your feet and enjoying the weather! Hard to ask for more than that!

[Mark Cooper]

Please note - I replied to reporting participants in the two posts linked below.

Mark's Replies for March 18 - Part 1
Mark's Replies for March 18 - Part 2

All right, everyone! Our third March check-in is all done, and we'll have one more next Friday! Let's make ourselves proud of how we bring this month to a close, shall we?

Quite a group of 10-Point stars this week, with BambiS, George Ohwell, josietheschnauzer, Rebecka22, and VegSeekingFit all coming in with 10/10. Awesome achievement!

I have some resources to share from the main McDougall website this week, starting with a back-to-basics review of key principles in Jeff's Three Essential Keys to a Healthy Diet. Give it a read.

Foods Over Nutrients
Variety Within a Food Group
Dietary Patterns
Remembering these three key issues and five pillars of the overall dietary pattern will help you avoid the hype, pick from a variety of minimally processed, nutrient-rich foods within that dietary pattern, and stay focused, simply and effectively, on your health.

Another article that I think will offer great value for this group is Mary McDougall's advice for Making the Change to a Healthy Lifestyle Work; it includes discussion of motivation, potential challenges, obstacles and strategies for making your change in behavior work for you.

The fastest way to make the McDougall Program fail (just as all the other diets you’ve tried), is to give insufficient attention to buying good foods and then to preparing delicious meals from them. When the refrigerator and the cupboards are bare, or worse yet, still filled with the old high-fat items that brought you to your alarming state of obesity and poor health, you’re going to have a hard time fixing meals that please and ease.

Finally, for some encouragement and vicarious experience of potential, check out the story of veteran MWL adherent Elizabeth TeSelle. She recently posted an update to her narrative that I thought spoke especially well to the focus of our group.

Despite my best intentions, I did slip back a bit during COVID, as did many. I gained a little weight and was disappointed in myself. But I knew what to do, and I did it. I got back on plan and lost the weight in less than 3 months and am back now at 120, happy and healthy at age 59. It’s important to remember that a slip is not the end of the world—we can move on from mistakes. This plan is the best, safest, healthiest and tastiest way to eat. It always works. Remembering that will help fix any mistakes.

Enjoy, take care, and be well!

[squealcat]

Just finished reading "The Three Essential Keys to a Healthy Diet ". Very good advice ! I read very often about certain nutrients that we HAVE TO get into our daily diet but if only we just eat a variety of whole foods, we would have so much more !

Today I did not feel like exercising nor did I feel like cooking anything. I talked myself into doing my morning stretches and then went to the gym and talked myself into walking "just one mile" and I did three miles ! I got into the groove once I started !

Cooking? Even though I didn't feel like doing that I knew I was low on my starch foods. One thing led to another and I made today a starch day ! Mashed potatoes, steamed yellow potatoes, brown rice and steel cut oats are all ready. I just used my instant pot for it all, just gave it a rinse between each cooking session and voila ! Starches all done for the week !! I already have some cauliflower soup cooked and have plenty of salad-type vegetables as well as a couple bags of frozen and plenty of fruit so I am good to go !

-squealcat

PS: thank you Mark for your words of wisdom ! I have energy again !

[Gimmelean]

McDougall Post for week ending 3/18/22

1) Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. 

Yes.

2). Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals:
Yes.

3) Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts.  This includes gourmet sugars and salts too.  If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them.
No-Lapses, yes. Letting go- no.


4) Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood).
No. I ate cheese. Not a lot.

5) Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy).
Yes.

6) Eliminate any added oil.
Yes.

7) Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit.
No- but much less than last week. Still aiming for a yes in this category.

8 ) Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages).
Yes.

9) Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full.   Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself.

Yes.

10) Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking).
Yes.

Victories, comments, concerns, questions: Have a good week everyone as we head towards the first day of spring.

[George Ohwell]

George Ohwell - TEN more YESes this week! Congratulations on maintaining the pattern of behavior recommended for MWL for eight weeks! I think it makes sense to just stick with the program and see what happens, as you describe. Speaking for myself, I've been behaving in accordance with MWL for 5+ years, and for the majority of that time I've maintained a BMI near the lower end of the healthy range, without any modifications to the MWL checklist (the only exception to that was a brief period during and immediately following a hospitalization, when I dropped into the underweight category - no problems since that was resolved). It may not be an issue that even arises.

This is very interesting to me. so you still follow MWL with no added fat? I admit, I'm still susceptible to the messages out there that I need some nuts in my diet. I heard that we need a minimum of 3 g of omega-6 fats per day and I actually don't achieve that without a walnut (all I need is one). I easily get my omega-3 fats from my 1 T of chia seeds.

thanks, George

[Mark Cooper]

This is very interesting to me. so you still follow MWL with no added fat? I admit, I'm still susceptible to the messages out there that I need some nuts in my diet.

It has been, at minimum, several years since I consumed any nuts or seeds, and nearly as long since eating any variety of plant food with a high percentage of calories from fat. I do eat a significant volume of leafy greens, lettuces, and other non starchy vegetables, all of which have plenty of essential fats. Of course, ALL plant foods contain some ratio of essential fats. There was a point in the past where I experimented with including some flaxseed in my menu, but after a thorough evaluation I realized the content of essential fats in my diet was adequate without it. Some factors specific to my personal situation:
for a variety of reasons, I stay quite physically active and I'm a volume eater, as well, so I do consume what many would consider a very large volume of food, and I LOVE salad, so a fair portion of that food tends to be raw vegetables and greens.
Generally, I focus on what Jeff describes here.

Question: why is a tablespoon of flax a day not recommended on this program?

From my perspective, chasing after individual nutrients (without a demonstrated need, based on evidence) is, at best, a distraction; at worst, actively counterproductive to what we seek to accomplish in this group - getting the food and our behaviors right from day to day on a consistent, ongoing basis.

Nutrients and the RDA/DRI
The RDA/DRI’s do not always apply to those following a healthy starch based diet. However by following the guidelines, especially starting meals with a soup or salad and the 50/50 guideline, one's diet with be very nutrient dense. In regard to weight, we do not recommend tracking your nutrients. Follow the plan, and the nutrients will be there.

While flax and walnuts may be a rich source of omega 3's, and some will recommended a certain amount, they are not really required at all as all plants have omega 3's and you are getting in plenty even if you don't consume any flax of walnuts.

1) My position on ALL supplements is that I do not recommend:

-the general and/or random use of any supplement

-supplements without informed consent. (All supplements have some risk)

-supplementation without a clearly established need that has been established in the context of a professional evaluation from a competent healthcare professional. All treatment is predicated upon proper diagnosis.

-supplementation that does not include the appropriate and continuing professional monitoring with a competent healthcare professional

-any supplement that is sold through an MLM company or from the healthcare professional recommending them.

2) In regard to general nutrition, I recommend the following:

-Undergo a complete nutritional evaluation of your diet to see if there are any nutrients that may be considered low.

-If there are any nutrients considered low, identify the healthiest foods that are highest in nutrient density for those nutrients and then adjust your diet to include more of these foods in your diet.

-Once done, re-evaluate your diet to make sure it is nutritionally adequate.

-You can do this with the help of a nutrition professional or you can do this yourself with one of the nutrition program available. My personal recommendation for this is the CRON-O-Meter, which is a free program and the nutrient search tool available at http://www.nutritiondata.com.

3)For those who have chosen to follow a diet completely free of all animal products, they have created a “need” for Vitamin B12 and so in this situation, a reliable source of Vitamin B12 is required and a supplement might be the way to fill that need.

4)In regard to the current focus on Vitamin D, if you are concerned or in the “at risk” category:

-Get yourself tested

-If you are deficient, then you need to speak with your healthcare adviser about how to raise your levels. You have several choices including sunshine, artificial UV light, supplements, prescription or a combination.

-Choose the option or combination of options you are most comfortable with and in 3 months, retest.

-If your numbers are now normal, you have the same options to choose from on how you will maintain your levels.

-If your numbers are still low, continue for 3 more months and then once again, re-evaluate your levels.

-The following groups are considered, "At risk”
- Breastfed infants
- Older adults
- People with limited sun exposure
- People with dark skin
- People with fat malabsorption
- People who are obese or who have undergone gastric bypass surgery

5)Lastly, in regard to the therapeutic use of supplements to treat specific health and medical conditions, yes, it is true that in some specific situations for some specific diseases, supplements may play a beneficial role. However, to see if this situation may apply specifically to you, please see my recommendations in point 1 above. Remember, all treatment is predicated upon proper diagnosis.

I think one of the advantages of MWL is that it has a clear, concise, easily-understandable set of guidelines (based on the best evidence) without much "wiggle room." Building in "exceptions" paves the way for still more "exceptions" - if THIS exception is OK, why not that - after all, a little (avocado, tofu, walnuts, peanut butter, toast, soy milk, coconut cream, popcorn, chocolate, wine, &c.) isn't likely to be a problem in small amounts, right?

People struggle to achieve their goals and when they take a close look at their diet, they see, there are too many foods that may be allowed but not ideal.

That is why many can't find success till they go on the MWL program (or some other stricter version of the program). The MWL is pretty black and white about what is allowed. There are no exceptions to it either. The regular program has a lot of gray area. And, for many, the little becomes a lot.

If you are interested in a deep dive into the subject of Omega 3 fatty acids, I found this to be a very thorough and well-considered review.

[George Ohwell]

This is very interesting to me. so you still follow MWL with no added fat? I admit, I'm still susceptible to the messages out there that I need some nuts in my diet.

It has been, at minimum, several years since I consumed any nuts or seeds, and nearly as long since eating any variety of plant food with a high percentage of calories from fat. I do eat a significant volume of leafy greens, lettuces, and other non starchy vegetables, all of which have plenty of essential fats. Of course, ALL plant foods contain some ratio of essential fats. There was a point in the past where I experimented with including some flaxseed in my menu, but after a thorough evaluation I realized the content of essential fats in my diet was adequate without it. Some factors specific to my personal situation:
for a variety of reasons, I stay quite physically active and I'm a volume eater, as well, so I do consume what many would consider a very large volume of food, and I LOVE salad, so a fair portion of that food tends to be raw vegetables and greens.
Generally, I focus on what Jeff describes here.

Question: why is a tablespoon of flax a day not recommended on this program?

From my perspective, chasing after individual nutrients (without a demonstrated need, based on evidence) is, at best, a distraction; at worst, actively counterproductive to what we seek to accomplish in this group - getting the food and our behaviors right from day to day on a consistent, ongoing basis.

Nutrients and the RDA/DRI
The RDA/DRI’s do not always apply to those following a healthy starch based diet. However by following the guidelines, especially starting meals with a soup or salad and the 50/50 guideline, one's diet with be very nutrient dense. In regard to weight, we do not recommend tracking your nutrients. Follow the plan, and the nutrients will be there.

While flax and walnuts may be a rich source of omega 3's, and some will recommended a certain amount, they are not really required at all as all plants have omega 3's and you are getting in plenty even if you don't consume any flax of walnuts.

1) My position on ALL supplements is that I do not recommend:

-the general and/or random use of any supplement

-supplements without informed consent. (All supplements have some risk)

-supplementation without a clearly established need that has been established in the context of a professional evaluation from a competent healthcare professional. All treatment is predicated upon proper diagnosis.

-supplementation that does not include the appropriate and continuing professional monitoring with a competent healthcare professional

-any supplement that is sold through an MLM company or from the healthcare professional recommending them.

2) In regard to general nutrition, I recommend the following:

-Undergo a complete nutritional evaluation of your diet to see if there are any nutrients that may be considered low.

-If there are any nutrients considered low, identify the healthiest foods that are highest in nutrient density for those nutrients and then adjust your diet to include more of these foods in your diet.

-Once done, re-evaluate your diet to make sure it is nutritionally adequate.

-You can do this with the help of a nutrition professional or you can do this yourself with one of the nutrition program available. My personal recommendation for this is the CRON-O-Meter, which is a free program and the nutrient search tool available at http://www.nutritiondata.com.

3)For those who have chosen to follow a diet completely free of all animal products, they have created a “need” for Vitamin B12 and so in this situation, a reliable source of Vitamin B12 is required and a supplement might be the way to fill that need.

4)In regard to the current focus on Vitamin D, if you are concerned or in the “at risk” category:

-Get yourself tested

-If you are deficient, then you need to speak with your healthcare adviser about how to raise your levels. You have several choices including sunshine, artificial UV light, supplements, prescription or a combination.

-Choose the option or combination of options you are most comfortable with and in 3 months, retest.

-If your numbers are now normal, you have the same options to choose from on how you will maintain your levels.

-If your numbers are still low, continue for 3 more months and then once again, re-evaluate your levels.

-The following groups are considered, "At risk”
- Breastfed infants
- Older adults
- People with limited sun exposure
- People with dark skin
- People with fat malabsorption
- People who are obese or who have undergone gastric bypass surgery

5)Lastly, in regard to the therapeutic use of supplements to treat specific health and medical conditions, yes, it is true that in some specific situations for some specific diseases, supplements may play a beneficial role. However, to see if this situation may apply specifically to you, please see my recommendations in point 1 above. Remember, all treatment is predicated upon proper diagnosis.

I think one of the advantages of MWL is that it has a clear, concise, easily-understandable set of guidelines (based on the best evidence) without much "wiggle room." Building in "exceptions" paves the way for still more "exceptions" - if THIS exception is OK, why not that - after all, a little (avocado, tofu, walnuts, peanut butter, toast, soy milk, coconut cream, popcorn, chocolate, wine, &c.) isn't likely to be a problem in small amounts, right?

People struggle to achieve their goals and when they take a close look at their diet, they see, there are too many foods that may be allowed but not ideal.

That is why many can't find success till they go on the MWL program (or some other stricter version of the program). The MWL is pretty black and white about what is allowed. There are no exceptions to it either. The regular program has a lot of gray area. And, for many, the little becomes a lot.

If you are interested in a deep dive into the subject of Omega 3 fatty acids, I found this to be a very thorough and well-considered review.

Mark, wow, this is a fantastic response. You are so helpful! thank you! wow, what a great resource you are and what a great program this is. Okay, I will follow the program exactly as specified (with no added fats, even chia and flax), and I take comfort in the fact that I can continue for as long as I like, even if at goal weight. I would prefer to eat oatmeal or bananas to nuts and seeds any day! Thank you and thanks to Jeff Novick and Dr. McDougall for a fantastic program. And to think this is all free!!!

-George

[George Ohwell]

I have a few questions: is it okay eat more than 3 meals? I tend to prefer the same amount of food spread into 4 meals. Are we allowed 2 or 3 fruits per day? sorry if these have been answered multiple times already.

[Mark Cooper]

Is it okay eat more than 3 meals?

Check out this thread for Jeff's discussion of meal frequency. The short answer: eat in response to hunger, and with whatever frequency helps you to attain and sustain the overall dietary pattern that is recommended.

There is really little to any well done credible science that supports the difference between 3-5 meals, or 1-2, or consuming regular small snacks all day, or eating most meals early, or some later day, or some mid day, etc etc etc and any real health outcome over time.

So, in the end, because there is really little evidence anywhere that any of these minor details will matter, what does matter is to do which ever one helps you with the best compliance & adherence over time.

Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same.

Are we allowed 2 or 3 fruits per day?

This post offers what I think is an effective illustration of how to consider fruit consumption.

[George Ohwell]

so much great information, thank you for taking the time to share it! I think I'm following the spirit of the program, I hope. I avoid bananas most of the time because they taste too good, ha, and are high calorie. I like a small bowl of cherries (1/2 cup) before breakfast (while exercising), mainly to give me just a taste of the cherries and a little boost of energy. I know I can overeat them if I don't pay attention, but a taste is enough to satisfy me. Then I eat a serving of berries at lunch, then a medium orange at dinner. I don't feel that I am overeating any foods at the moment. but I do want to follow the program as specified. so I think I will go down to two fruits and see how that goes.

[josietheschnauzer]

The Jeff Novick -- Mark Recommended Vegetable Lasagna is DELICIOUS and lovely to serve! Oh my, my book club loved it almost as much as I did. As Mark said, perfect for company! It is easy to make and soooo good! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[Mark Cooper]

I think I'm following the spirit of the program

Based on what you describe, I would agree with you.

I think I will go down to two fruits and see how that goes.

That's a great way to gather more information; do a little experiment and see how it goes.