The Behavioral Path to MWL Success - April 2024 Group

[Mark Cooper]

BambiS - Awesome! Thanks for the confirmation about starch intake. It seems like you are doing great; carry on!

Rebecka22 - Happy anniversary and congratulations to you and your husband! Kudos to you for being intentional and doing your best to follow the recommendations that felt most significant for you during that time. It seems excellent that you were able to get right back to the full compliment of recommendations once you were home. Keep that rolling!

carolw - "Let's get to work" - I LOVE THAT! I, and I imagine many other participants, really relate to your observations about how lonely it can feel practicing this way of eating in the context of the broader environment, Carol. I hope this group can offer some meaningful sense of community as you continue your efforts. You appear to be off to a fabulous start!

VegSeekingFit - Wishing you a wonderful and successful day of pickleball, Stephanie! I hope you are feeling much better now; it is never fun to be feverish, but you seem to have managed things very well. Let us know how the tournament goes, how your meals work out, and if you adjust anything based on your experience. I think learning how you manage such busy and active days successfully is a great benefit for our group. Cheers!

CUgorji22 - WOW! You did GREAT on the road, Chesca! A big win for sure. Much as you observe, I find that scheduling my exercise for first thing in the morning (before everyone else is awake) works best for me, too.

Every victory so far just deepens my convictions to adhere to the Guidelines with confidence!

That is delightful to know; thank you for sharing. Continue with confidence!

Gimmelean - Really solid efforts! It is wonderful to have you back with us this week. We've been traveling this path together long enough to feel like old comrades, right? Onward we go!

[Mark Cooper]

It is shaping up to be an awesome April! I'm so grateful for all our amazing, positive, diligent participants and the supportive community you create. Take a bow!

Now, for recommendation number seven.

7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit.

I think the primary reasoning behind this recommendation is covered in Passive Overconsumption: The Unintended Intake of Excess Calories.

Higher Calorie Dense Foods
As the calorie density of the food goes up, we are more likely to overconsume calories, especially as the calorie density goes over 700-1000 calories per pound. On a whole-food, plant-based diet (WFPB), the foods that are over 1000 calories per pound are bread products (breads, bagels, crackers, dry cereals, tortillas), dried/dry fruits, nuts, seeds and oils.

Flour (Bread) Products
Most all flour (bread) products are higher in calorie density and lower in satiety, even if they are made from unrefined whole grains. On a WFPB diet, these foods include bread products (bread, bagels, dry cereal, crackers, tortillas) and baked chips.

Dry/Dried Foods
Food that is dried (and/or drier) and low in water have an increased calorie density and tend to be lower in satiety per calorie. On a WFPB diet, the foods that are dried/dry are dried fruits (raisins, prunes), naturally dry fruits (dates), bread products (bread, bagels, dry cereal, crackers, tortillas), baked chips, puffed cereals and popcorn.

Hyper-Palatable Foods
These are foods that have been salted, sweetened and/or sauced. They stimulate the appetite and lead to over consumption. Examples include cookies, cakes, pastries, etc.

Vanishing Perceived Satiety
Foods that fall into this category appear to be high in satiety due to their large volume but are actually high in calorie density and low in satiety. This is because they are dry foods with their volume coming from air as opposed to water (which decreases calorie density and increases satiety). For example, cooked brown rice (high water content) is 560 calories/lb and brown rice cakes (high air content) are 1760 calories/lb, an over three-fold difference. On a WFPB diet, foods that have vanishing perceived satiety include air-popped popcorn, rice cakes and puffed cereals.

Ultra-Processed Foods
Ultra-processed foods tend to be high in fat, calorie density, salt, sugar, refined flours, fat and oil. They also tend to be low in fiber, water and satiety and so we are more likely to over consume calories from them.

Two other posts I think provide valuable context and insight are A Date With Disaster: The Pleasure Trap of Whole Natural Foods and the results of the Pleasure Trap Trigger Foods Poll.

May your days ahead be filled with beauty, happiness, and the satisfaction of feeling efficacious! Take care & be well!

[BambiS]

1. Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit.
Yes

2. Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for desert
Yes

3. Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts, too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them.
Yes

4. Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood).
Yes

5. Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy).
Yes

6. Eliminate any added oil.
Yes

7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit.
Yes

8. Don't drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages).
Yes


9. Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself
Yes

10. Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking).
Most days

Victories, comments, concerns, questions good week, nothing eventful
A great week, enjoyed making Japanese sweet potato “toast”. Just smash a cooked potato and bake it till slightly crunchy.

Also been watching several Dr Lisle YouTube videos.

I am signed up to see Dr Barnard at a book signing in June in Cincinnati. I’m not as familiar with his work, but have his new book to catch up. I’m looking forward to meeting him.

[Rebecka22]

1.Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. YES
2. Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for dessert. YES
3. Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts, too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. YES
4. Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). YES
5. Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). YES
6. Eliminate any added oil. YES
7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. YES
8. Don't drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). YES
9. Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself. YES
10. Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking). YES

Back on track this week. Kept it simple and lots of veggies and fruit. Tried a new lasagna recipe from the Woman Warrior cookbook but swapped the cashews for cauliflower. I liked all the veggies, my family not so much. Oh well. Hope everyone has a great week. Thanks for the great reading last week.

[carolw]

Hi MWL buddies and Mark, Jeff and WildGoose,

It is so lovely to be back on track and know you are all trudging this road with me.

1.Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. YES weather is cooling down here in Oz so so more soup on the table.

2) Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for desert. YESI increasing the volume of veggies, less starch on the plate.

3) Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. YES I have definitely reduced salt, although I do use soy sauce sparingly.

4) Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). YES

5) Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). YES but I do have some plant milk in tea and porridge, also a Tbsp of flax seed, but I have eliminated nuts, avocados, tofu. I sometimes use a small amount of miso for flavoring in soup.

6) Eliminate any added oil. YES. But I’m sure it’s in the food I eat out of my house.

7) Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. NO I ate a sliver of cake I made for grandson’s birthday party and one roti at a friend’s dinner.

8 ) Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). YES

9) Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself. YES

10) Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking). YES, my husband and I added more walking this week. Got up to 6 days of exercise.

Victories, comments, concerns, questions:
My body feels better this week since I lost a couple of pounds. Clothes fitting better makes for better mood and higher self-esteem. Also increased energy level.

Some issues are bothering me more now at an advanced age which did not concern me so much in the past. For example, for my eyes it has been suggested by one eye doctor that I eat fish 2x a week to help with macular degeneration which may be looming. Another eye doctor didn’t think it was a problem. Is there a reasonable alternative to fish? I have been sprinkling porridge with ground flax seed.
On the topic of dementia, memory loss and Alzheimer, there is plenty of emphasis even among the plant based experts on eating nuts and seeds. Of all the plant based doctors and experts now online and very vocal, my favorite is still Dr. McDougall for his balanced approach (which hasn’t changed since the early 80”s). As far as nutrition, I go with whatever Jeff Novick says. Also a balanced. reasoned and principled approach.
Another question I have is about the value of various seaweeds in our diet.
Here's to another great week of adherence to this wonderful MWL food plan.

Carol

[Artista]

Greetings MWL team!

Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit.  Yes

2) Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for desert. Yes

3) Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts.  This includes gourmet sugars and salts too.  If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. Yes.

4) Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). Yes.

5) Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). Still using 2-3 Tbsps of soy milk every day.

6) Eliminate any added oil. Yes

7) Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. Yes

8 ) Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). Yes.

9) Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself. Yes

10) Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking). I missed two days of exercise this week.

I missed reporting last week, time just got away from me and before I realized it I had missed the deadline. This week went pretty well overall. I didn’t exercise every day but the days I did exercise were over 30 minutes so I think it averaged out to 30 minutes a day for the week. I noticed that some of the clothes that had gotten tight are fitting well again. I’m still very much enjoying the food and finding this way of eating very easy to follow.

Welcome back, Carol Those are great health & diet related questions you raised. I've wondered about some of those same things myself.

[CUgorji22]

*SUMMARY/THOUGHTS*
This week was a doozy! While my husband attended a work conference all week, me & my kids spent time with our extended family, during a week-long, city-wide festival. These family members have a lifestyle of eating out...for every meal. So we did festival activities and ate dinner with them every night (Mon-Fri). We also had lunch with them one day (Thurs). I did my best to order based on the guidelines but there's nothing like eating my own home cooked meals. My digestion let me know there was something different about this week. Thinking about and adhering to the guidelines (for me) is quite different when eating out vs. eating at home.

Today, we hit the road and travel to another city. I really look forward to getting back to my "normal" MWL regimen. I actually crave my own food. The thought of eating out right now is not appealing.

Thank you, Mark, and everyone else for your support!

[CUgorji22]

*SUMMARY/THOUGHTS*
This week was a doozy! While my husband attended a work conference all week, me & my kids spent time with our extended family, during a week-long, city-wide festival. These family members have a lifestyle of eating out...for every meal. So we did festival activities and ate dinner with them every night (Mon-Fri). We also had lunch with them one day (Thurs). I did my best to order based on the guidelines but there's nothing like eating my own home cooked meals. My digestion let me know there was something different about this week. Thinking about and adhering to the guidelines (for me) is quite different when eating out vs. eating at home.

Today, we hit the road and travel to another city. I really look forward to getting back to my "normal" MWL regimen. I actually crave my own food. The thought of eating out right now is not appealing.

Thank you, Mark, and everyone else for your support!

[VegSeekingFit]

Hi Team Time & Adherence!!
Hope that everyone had an awesome week of practicing the MWL behaviors! I am feeling very positive and loving the food!
1 Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit.
Maybe a handful of times for the week.

2 Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for dessert.
Yes.

3 Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them.
Yes – reduced not eliminated.

4 Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood).
Yes.

5 Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy).
Yes.

6 Eliminate any added oil.
Yes.

7 Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes, puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn, and dried fruit).
Yes.

8 Don’t drink your calories especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages.
Yes.

9 Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself.
Yes – no stuffing or starving. Still being mindful of this!

10 Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking).
Yes! Got in some great walk / jogs, strength training, and pickleball this week. Feels wonderful to MOVE!!!

Victories, comments, concerns, questions:

Mark – You asked me about how I handle food for the pickleball tournaments last week and how they are going.

Last week my partner and I played our first Mixed Doubles tournament. We were outplayed (finished in the middle) but learned a lot about how to better strategize, communicate, and work together as a team. Today we took 1st place in the intermediate level at “Spring Fling”. So, YAY to that and we had a ton of fun in both tournaments.

For food, I like to eat my regular oatmeal with fruit for breakfast before leaving or enroute. I make it the night before and put it in a to-go container in the refrigerator so that I can grab it fast (since many of these events require leaving at the crack of dawn)!!! Then, I pack food similar to what you might take on a plane in case I get hungry during the event (and to avoid eating what is provided which is not compliant). I like to bring food that you can eat without utensils and that will hold up pretty well in my pickleball bag. Usually that would be potatoes, Jeff burgers, and fruit – like banana, apple, pear, or grapes. Sometimes I also bring carrots and /or baby tomatoes. For the past two weeks, I wasn’t hungry so didn’t eat any of the food I brought – but unpacked it when I got home and had it for my next meal. I did have one learning today --- had sprinkled some garlic salt on the potatoes and I won’t do that again because my bag smelled!! HA!

Thanks so much to all fellow group members for being here --- and a big thanks to Mark for all of the positivity and encouragement!!


Cheers,
Stephanie

[CUgorji22]

Happy Saturday, everyone!
*Guidelines:
1. Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. Compliant 
2. Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for dessert. Compliant 
- Decision to adhere: I had to be extra vigilant because we ate out so many times with my extended family. 

3. Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. Not Compliant 

- Non-compliance/reason: I had over-salted dishes while eating out. I didn't realize how much my taste buds have changed.   
4. Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). Not Compliant 
- Non-compliance/reason: The night before a travel day, we ordered food to go from a Thai restaurant. I was confident with my order after reading and re-reading the ingredients on the menu. Long story short, there were bits & pieces of egg in my dish. When I noticed, I was so disappointed. I didn't have any prepared/cooked meals left. I reluctantly ate the dish. 

5. Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). Compliant 

6. Eliminate any added oil. Not Compliant 
- Non-compliance/reason: Even with my best efforts to order at restaurants, I was still brought dishes with oil. I ordered lemon spinach and made sure to ask about the ingredients used/preparation. The more I ate, the more I realized it was cooked with oil. 

7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. Compliant 

8. Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). Not Compliant 
- Non-compliance/reason: While out with my extended family, I ordered a cocktail. It didn't even dawn on me until I was halfway finished with my drink that it was sweetened with syrup; the alcohol also added calories. I am usually fixed on not drinking juice, soda, etc. Whoopsy-daisy! 

9. Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don’t starve yourself and don’t stuff yourself. Compliant 

- Decision to adhere: This guideline made all the difference this week. I was able to walk away from meals feeling satisfied and not stuffed (sometimes not even full) at restaurants...which for me showed a change in my thinking/eating behavior. 

10. Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking). Not Compliant 

- Non-compliance/reason: I exercised 5/7 days this week. Better but not compliant yet. 
- Decision to Adhere: I was able to workout before my kids woke up...WIN! One day that wasn't possible BUT I was able to exercise while they were eating breakfast, which may now become my Plan B. I used fitness apps in my RV and was able to walk the trail at our RV Park twice. 

*Weight Change: 2.2lb gain*

*SUMMARY/THOUGHTS*This week was a doozy! While my husband attended a work conference all week, me & my kids spent time with our extended family, during a week-long, city-wide festival. These family members have a lifestyle of eating out...for every meal. So we did festival activities and ate dinner with them every night (Mon-Fri). We also had lunch with them one day (Thurs). I did my best to order based on the guidelines but there's nothing like eating my own home cooked meals. My digestion let me know there was something different about this week. Thinking about and adhering to the guidelines (for me) is quite different when eating out vs. eating at home. 
Today, we hit the road and travel to another city. I really look forward to getting back to my "normal" MWL regimen. I actually crave my own food. The thought of eating out right now is not appealing. 
Thank you, Mark, and everyone else for your support!

[CUgorji22]

Mark, my apologies for duplicate posts.

We are on the road and I had major internet issues.

I can't figure out how to delete 2 posts with just my "Summary."

I was finally able to post my entire message. Please excuse the formatting.


Thank you!
-Chesca

[Mark Cooper]

My entire post of replies was just "eaten" by some sort of glitch, so let me just say congratulations and thanks to all. Below are links to articles that I hope address the questions raised in this week's discussions. Apologies to everyone for the ongoing technical challenges. It is out of my hands, but we will all hope for the best.

Going Fishing?

Fish is Not Health Food

Vegetable & Fish Oils

Essential Fats: Plant vs Marine & ALA vs EPA &/or DHA

Some Sense About Seaweed

Omega 3 DHA, diet and lifestyle factors influencing brain health, dementia, and Alzheimer's disease

Best to all!

[VegSeekingFit]

Sorry that you lost your post, Mark! Hope that you have a terrific week!

[carolw]

Hi to all,
I'm checking in to the April 2024 feed since I want to be accountable and will not have time later in the weekend.
1) Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. Yes

2) Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for desert.Yes. My plate has more veggies in it now

3) Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them.Yes, I have reduced salt and sugar

4) Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). NO, today I had a small piece of fish

5) Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). YES but also include a TBS of flax seed

6) Eliminate any added oil. YES except when at the mercy of restaurant food.

7) Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e. bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. NO today had 2 pieces of toast for breakfast

8 ) Don’t drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages).YES

9) Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself.NO sometimes I stuff

10) Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking).YES even though we had many rainy days, tried to get out to walk sometime during the non-rainy periods.

Even though I have anumber of NO's I felt the week went very well. I didn't lose more weight but I felt not driven by the food and had no/few incidents of picking between meals. This has been my most recurring problem but in rejoining MWL forum I am able to surrender the picking as well as the reaching for non-compliant foods and it feels so good!
I am also very aware of getting as much exercise as possible or at least a little more than the usual. Like today even though it was rainy we found a break during the day and went for a walk. It's so much easier to stay indoors and stay warm but together my husband and I encourage each other to get out.
Also I am managing to get more vegetables on the plate. Using a lot of wonderful spices and adding more veggies to my bean dishes.
Then there are days when things don't go according to plan. Because of family crisis today we found ourselves going out to eat breakfast. I could have ordered my daily oatmeal but I was so turned on that the cafe had a vegetable shashouka and I requested to use as little oil as possible. It came without any oil in evidence and alongside a bit of hummus. So far, so good. HOWEVER, the dish came with toast and ate it plain, felt bad about it, so ate some of my husband's non-compliant dish. It was not the non-compliant foods that was the problem. I was definitely turned on, not only by the foods I was eating but by the foods that others were eating in the restaurant. This carried on in my mind for 1/2 a day and I hope now I have returned to my inner calm. It is insidious how the pleasure trap can sometimes grab you by the neck in certain environments and shake you about til you come to your senses. Restaurants for me are not great and I don't go to many of them.Only those where i know I can get my food and i am prepared to order only that.
I read all the material you included to answer my questions of last week. It was a good read and i am clearer now but as far as fatty fish, here was no reference to studies about their impact on macular degeneration which was my specific question. So today I had a small piece of fish which I do about once a month.The doctor suggested 2X a week. I will search online for some sources which relate to this.
Thank you for all you and your team do for us.
Carol

[Rebecka22]

I don’t see a May page so posting here as well.

1.Start each meal with a soup and/or salad and/or fruit. YES
2. Follow the 50/50 plate method for your meals, filling half your plate (by visual volume) with non-starchy vegetables and 50% (by visual volume) with minimally processed starches. Choose fruit for dessert. YES
3. Greatly reduce or eliminate added sugars and added salts. This includes gourmet sugars and salts, too. If either is troublesome for you, you can eliminate them. YES
4. Eliminate all animal foods (dairy, meat, eggs, fish, seafood). YES
5. Eliminate all higher fat plant foods (i.e., nuts, seeds, avocados, tofu, soy). YES
6. Eliminate any added oil. YES
7. Eliminate all higher calorie-dense foods including flour products (i.e., bread, bagels, muffins, crackers, dry cereals, cookies, cakes), puffed cereals, air-popped popcorn and dried fruit. YES
8. Don't drink your calories (especially from juices & sugar-sweetened beverages). YES
9. Follow these principles, eating whenever you are hungry until you are comfortably full. Don't starve yourself and don't stuff yourself. YES
10. Avoid being sedentary and aim for at least 30 minutes or more of moderate exercise daily (i.e., brisk walking). YES

I had a good week. Going out of town this weekend where there will be lots of food. I have a plan though with food packed for both breakfasts and first dinner and lunch, then plan to just go to the store as needed and keep it simple.