Hiking advice please.

[Sunflwrgirl]

Hello fellow Mcdougallers,
My husband and I are talking of turning our 1-2 hr random hiking trips to training for a much longer hike such as the Pacific trail one day. DH is 46 and a retired soldier of the Army since almost a year now. Though I will say he has fallen apart a bit, we figure this is the best medicine to help him. He is not a McDougaller, though I will say he has given it a great amount of thought.
Myself, I am 44 and though I have walked many miles a day since I can even remember, biked 20 to 30 miles any given day at least 3 times a week and was a personal trainer who loved fitness in every way.... this has not been my lifestyle since 2010. I do eat WFPBLF now for 2 years. Though I just recently realized this past month that I was still getting oils in places on a daily basis. Dang Lecithin... At any rate, I believe that training for the fitness part we do somewhat know what needs to be done. However, the food I am a bit stumped as to what we should take with us for hiking more like 3+ hrs. When researching on line I notice things like even peanut/ almond butter packets. But I am scared of these as I don't think my gut will appreciate that anymore. Want to add that I am pretty sure that my husband will eat the things I bring and fully enjoy them as he does love the way I am eating. Secretly I'm hoping this is the one thing that helps him to make that leap into this woe... All while we are enjoying nature and all its greatness.

All this being said - Im hoping that there are more hikers in this group that can help guide us a bit. Thank you in advance.

[Gershon]

Hiking a long trail is a special challenge to this WOE.

Before you get too far into the planning, I suggest taking a six-night (seven day) trip. Have one resupply in the middle. You will learn more from that trip than you will learn from any reading or advice.

Basically, if you go low fat, you will need 2 pounds of food per day for 3,000 calories. By the fourth day, other hikers start to look tasty.

Your pack weight will play a big role in your success. You don't have to be ultra-light, but light is good. Being light is more about leaving things home than buying expensive gear. I travel with 22 pounds including four liters of water for an overnight trip. I add 1.5 pounds of food per full middle day and a bowl of oatmeal for the last day. Most of my gear is from the 80's or equivalent gear.

I suggest asking the same question at http://www.backpacking.net. Just give a brief description of this WOE.

Enjoy your success!

[Sunflwrgirl]

Thank you so much Gershon. Can I ask what your average meals look like for say a two day hike with one overnight stay?

Also yes, we are planning to do one overnight at a time and gradually work our way up to a week at a time and so on.

All I can see in my mind is how can I keep my taters from spoiling if Im walking in the sun.. lol

[Gershon]

Thank you so much Gershon. Can I ask what your average meals look like for say a two day hike with one overnight stay?

Also yes, we are planning to do one overnight at a time and gradually work our way up to a week at a time and so on.

All I can see in my mind is how can I keep my taters from spoiling if Im walking in the sun.. lol

You could ask, but I don't have an average for an overnight trip. Sometimes, I bring canned beans, veges and taco shells for supper and several snacks. Other times I bring a couple McDougall soups and 60 grams of oatmeal for the morning. Many times, I don't eat the second day.

You can get some ideas from an old blog of mine in the Sep 2011 archives. Many of the meals aren't compliant as I wasn't on this WOE at the time.

http://gramcracker-gershon.blogspot.com/2011/09/american-discovery-trail-92811.html

[Sunflwrgirl]

Thank you. I will for sure look at your blog. Really just need a handful of ideas to help sustain us till I can randomly learn new ideas. Is it crazy to think that I could actually bring cooked potatoes in a baggy of some sort. Im thinking that being here in Colorado and hiking through the winter/ early spring I would probably be fine. It would be the heat of summer that would probably spoil them to fast for me..

[Gershon]

Thank you. I will for sure look at your blog. Really just need a handful of ideas to help sustain us till I can randomly learn new ideas. Is it crazy to think that I could actually bring cooked potatoes in a baggy of some sort. I'm thinking that being here in Colorado and hiking through the winter/ early spring I would probably be fine. It would be the heat of summer that would probably spoil them to fast for me..

Hi, I'm from Pueblo. Now I can give some serious advice. Hey, maybe you are in the Springs given that your husband was in the Army.

You can carry a potato in the summer if you bury it a bit in your pack. You can also make a good potato soup from potato flour and some seasoning. I often take a vegetable sandwich for lunch a few hours from the trail head. Once in a while, I'll carry a beer and let it cool in a stream. You can make bean soup from dehydrated beans. Rice is a pain because it takes a long time to cook. Oatmeal is easier.

Now I can give some serious advice. Forget the PCT as your first hike and do a stretch of the Colorado Trail. I've done most of the northern half and Segment 15 to the Divide. The first half of the Colorado Trail, which is about 230 miles or more if you take the Continental Trail would be great practice. On the other hand, don't let anyone like me convince you it's not possible to do the PCT as your first long hike.

As for gear advice, I'm way out of the mainstream. Cotton cools, it doesn't kill. Only wet cotton kills. I wear combat boots. I use an external frame pack. I just upgraded from a SVEA 123 stove to a Trangia. I use an inexpensive sleeping bag and no pad. The only dedicated hiking clothing I have is...hmm, I don't have any. I just grab what's in my closet. (I used to have a fleece, but it wore out.)

The only difference between a person who completes a long trail is one keeps going and the other doesn't. The deciding factor is one HAS to hike the trail for some undefinable reason, and the other one wants to. That's pretty much true with everything in life.

Oh, and the worst times are the best times. Some day, I might mention our leaky tent experience.

[Sunflwrgirl]

Hello again,

Actually we are in Fort Collins. My husband retired Army last December out of Fort Bliss in El Paso, TX. About 2 years before he retired we sold / gave everything away that we owned and bought an RV to full time in. One of the best decision we could had made. At any rate, we are here at Horsetooth playing camphost since last May and will be till September 2016.

that all being said there are some beautiful trails all around us here in Fort Collins but I most definitely agree with you that there are so many perfect trails right here in Colorado. I do love the ones near Manitou as well. Cant remember the name that trail that is close by the one mile stairs. Have done them both though the trail that you can go all the way to the top and spend the night is something I do hope to achieve completely. I believe it is Pikes Peak trail.. but honestly cant remember. Been a few years since I was in that area.

As for the gear, we are planning to use as much of what we have on hand as we can. Especially for just starting out. Really dont need allot for simple 2 day hikes. We figure to buy things over time and not to just jump into all this. Not to mention finances are not terribly large to be doing that. lol

As for food.. Thank you for sharing on the powdered potatoes. I was thinking about that too. All your ideas and experiences will be very helpful. I have been researching so much on line, but when it comes to food... Everyone wants to add protein powders, massive amounts of fats, oils, nuts and seeds. Then of course chicken, fish and other processed meats...

[petero]

During the day, I'll munch on a mix of raisins and unsalted pretzels, or shredded wheat. Since I'm trying to burn off my fat, I don't eat during a hike unless it's more than, say, 15 easy miles or 10 difficult ones. YMMV and you may bonk, but in my experience it's unlikely if you're just walking. I do always bring raisins or gels but I've only bonked when fastpacking.

During a trip, my meals are usually oatmeal for breakfast, mashed potatoes for lunch, and either instant rice or lentils for dinner. When those mashed potatoes hit, about 30 minutes after eating, it's a great feeling. Sometimes I'll have two lunches and cook two portions for dinner, first the instant rice and then another lentil dinner. I use the supercat alcohol stove so I don't simmer, and save fuel by burning until the lentils boil, then let them sit, then boil again, until done. Some people buy or construct a pot cozy (koozie) for this purpose, and I might do that myself to save fuel. I don't mind the time it takes to cook lentils--there's nothing to do after you stop except set up camp and talk.

The real problem isn't staples, it's vegetation. Dried fruit is pretty easy to acquire, apricots have beta carotene, for example, but you'll be hurting for Vitamin C. A dryer is a good investment in general, but is pointless if you're not planning to use mail drops on the PCT or AT. I use a lot of dried herbs and spices to try to pack in some nutrition (onions, parsley, basil), and will carry salt packets (200mg of Na) to use one per meal if I don't have access to veggies. (I have no qualms about picking berries, ramps and dandelion greens, sustainably, in a National Forest, but not in a National Park or designated Wilderness of course.) A couple of walnuts or almonds to add to dinner are also good. I wouldn't be above carrying some Vitamin C pills, honestly. CRON-o-meter is a very handy tool for nutrition planning.

It's not that easy being a whole-foods vegan on the trail, but it's possible. You should consider the volume and weight of food choices, in addition to the calories, but I'm sure you've thought of that already. If you're not overweight, you'll want to make sure you bring enough calories, but in general I just follow my hunger. I didn't get any real "hiker hunger" on my AT section hike in 2010, though I did start packing crackers and fresh bagels. (Since I wanted to lose more weight, I stayed tough and never went nuts.) A backpacking trip is the best (and most fun) fat camp you can go to.

As for being frugal, I've been getting all of my clothing at Walmart these days. I'm not proud of that fact, but, too bad for the Chinese kids because I have to hike. Too bad they don't carry things stuffed with primaloft. I love Eureka tents. The only thing I would never, ever skimp on is a quality bag that's true to rating since I'm a cold, weak vegan who needs to be cooked overnight in order to want to keep moving the next day, and besides which, I don't use down so a cheap bag means one that's big and heavy. edit: In the spirit of cheapness, I'm going to shamelessly pimp my new YouTube channel but what I really need is a Donate button or I'll never save enough to hike a long-distance trail.

[runonstarch]

weight-wise look at dried foods. dried fruit, oatmeal, dried-mashed potatoes (bob's red mill is compliant). personally, i would add some nuts and seeds for some extra calories for the weight.

Andrew Skurka has a great website about backpacking gear (http://andrewskurka.com/). he's not plant based but that doesn't mean the rest of his stuff isn't really informative.

as for fitness, just keep getting out in the mountains and increasing your distance. i don't know where you live, but if you have some big hills to climb you can throw a 30lb back of concrete mix in a small pack and hike up and down the hill to gain strength and fitness.

good luck in your PCT goal.

[petero]

30lb back of concrete mix in a small pack and hike up and down the hill to gain strength and fitness.

Water is better because you can pour it out for the downhills. It's important to train the downhills, but to start slowly. Otherwise you could hurt your knees, for example loosen your ligaments and tear your meniscus. Ask me how I know.

[Sunflwrgirl]

Petro - What is YMMV? I also agree with you about "bonking". I do that now if I don't eat soon after I am hungry. Like if I wait and am sooo hungry then its like I have to eat some and then take like a 10 or 20 min nap just to go on with my day. Don't like how that makes me feel at all.

I do like your shredded wheat idea. Actually am liking most everyone's ideas for foods. At this point I know I am somewhat jumping the gun as I am not ready for a 10 mile hike yet. Possibly 5 would be fine, at which I'm sure snacking would not really be needed until I complete that and am home to eat. But this way when I do need to bring foods I am geared with knowledge and wont stress so much. Not to mention the more people share ideas for me the better. My plan is to put together for my husband also. Really hoping this hiking is his jump start to eating this way with me. I know he wants to. Just needs a true reason to jump in.

I am actually trying to lose weight still. Am sitting around 160 at this time, at 5ft 7in. See allot of people say 120 is best. Not sure if that would be my ideal weight I want. But would be very happy to be a very fit 135 - 140 though. So I will be watching how often I eat, but of course eating when I am hungry so that I can enjoy life a lil more.. lol

Am curious about the fats though. Am I missing the big picture. I know to lose weight I need to let go the fats till I reach where I want to be. But I also get it that if I was hiking / backpacking for days/weeks/months... maybe I should rethink the fats a bit. Like maybe a lil almond butter everyday? I am feeling a bit lost on that part. So if someone can help explain to me better would be of great help.

I did come across the dehydrator concept in a few googles I had done. Ironic that I have wanted one for a few years now. Looks like in time I will have a good solid reason to make that happen.

You mentioned vitamin C pills.. I used to use Emergen-C when transitioning into this way of eating to steer off illnesses from my husband and I both. I felt like it helped allot. Thinking this would be great to take with for long strenuous hikes.

Will for sure check out your YouTube channel. Love watching videos that people make to help others. I think to attach a donation button would be a great idea. If you are helping others I bet they would be happy to help you out so that you can share more..

Runonstartch - Will also check out Andrew Skurka web site. In my thoughts the ones that fellow hikers recommend are the best places to start.

Thank you again to everyone for guiding and sharing your thoughts. We are duly noting them and no doubt using a majority.
Only thing I wish is that hubby could had kept his sleeping bag and back pack from the military. That would had least supplied us with those necessities and with very durable ones at that. Its ok though.. Those are the 2 .. well 4 (one for each us) items we plan to not skimp on. They will be the one things we hope to use forever and like has been stated, they will be what makes this fun as well.

We are here in the Colorado area in Fort Collins. Absolutely beautiful country with a massive amount of trails in Colorado. Even if we drove a couple hrs to find a specific one we wanted.. My question to this though, is that I know there are different trail phone apps that can be used. Can you please recommend a good one? There are so many, but would like to know which is the most used and most reliable..

[petero]

Petro - What is YMMV?

"Your Mileage May Vary"

I also agree with you about "bonking". I do that now if I don't eat soon after I am hungry. Like if I wait and am sooo hungry then its like I have to eat some and then take like a 10 or 20 min nap just to go on with my day. Don't like how that makes me feel at all.

You might want to check out the thread in this subforum on Bonking.

Am curious about the fats though.

Personally I think the only reason to eat more fat is, like runsonstarch suggested, fat foods like nuts have a great weight-to-calorie ratio. That's why we avoid them on this WOE. If you get enough essential fat (a very small amount of Omega 3 and 6) your body will make all the fat it needs. If you have fat to burn, you'll burn the fat on your body.

I personally would use fats as a last resort to prevent looking like The Hiking Dead, but otherwise I'd prefer to burn my own fat. I also worry about cholesterol numbers increasing on a high fat diet, even it's being burned. I try not to do anything different diet-wise and just rely more on dried fruit and flour products for lots of calories. But they are heavier per calorie than nuts, and Dr. Greger from Nutrionfacts.org has videos showing studies that there is no weight gain from nuts, probably because nuts are a whole natural food.

I am a little jealous of those of you out in Colorado, for sure, but to be fair I still haven't begun to explore my own region. I'll have to see about getting some snow shoes and going further north this winter. The winter hiking in the Smokies is great, it's 50F in the valleys and there are actual views instead of the "green tunnel".

[Gershon]

I am a little jealous of those of you out in Colorado, for sure, but to be fair I still haven't begun to explore my own region. I'll have to see about getting some snow shoes and going further north this winter. The winter hiking in the Smokies is great, it's 50F in the valleys and there are actual views instead of the "green tunnel".

Here is a video I made that will make you a little more jealous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7cz9Cg-_v8

[Sunflwrgirl]

Petero - I did look more in the "bonking" as you suggested. Actually really grateful I did. Since this is actually a very big thing that has been happening to me and I guess I did not realize it. I thought you meant "bonking" as meaning that you are doing every day life even and dont eat when you are hungry and need to. But after reading in these forums as you have suggested, I get it much better. Like I had explained much earlier in my posting here I used to train very hard. Biking 20 - 30 miles, running 5 miles everyday, weight training m-f etc.... But I was eating a SAD diet and of course randomly taking whatever fitness pills I could get hold of. At any rate, that stopped back in 2008 for the most part. So knowing that I used to do that please also know that I never felt real tired. If I did, I ate whatever I could pick up to eat at that time.

Since I started eating this way I have come to realize that though I go to the gym with plans to least get in a good hour or more of cardio, I am absolutely drained by 40 min max. I just assumed I needed to train more and build up to what I was doing before. My crazy butt did not even put it together that I need to build and keep building my glycogen. My goal now is that I plan to bring me a banana or apple when I go workout. After about 30 min I plan to eat what I bring and then see how and feel and hopefully get my hour in..

Here is the posting that actually opened my eyes. Though many others did help me to understand.. this was the best. Let me know your thoughts on this as well....

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11690&hilit=Hiking+Bonking

I have experienced the same thing during long hikes while on this diet, so have made some slight adaptations to counter it. What happens, as Erin said, is that your body is using up all of its glycogen stored in the muscle tissue- so you are 'bonking'. This is a common issue with endurance athletes and can be addressed once you understand some basics about exercise physiology. First, let's define what endurance training is so there isn't an issue with terminology. This is a person that trains aerobically for long periods of time- typically a minimum of one hour up to several hours per day most days of the week. This rules out a large percentage of McDougallers, so making changes to the basic diet would only apply to people in this 'category' of endurance training. Although it is true that endurance athletes eat a lot of carbohydrate, the misconception that long distance athletes eat a diet similar to what is recommended by Dr. McDougall is incorrect. The longer the duration one exercises, the more fat becomes the preferential calorie source burned while exercising. The percentages of carbohydrate, fat and protein vary depending upon the intensity of the endurance activity- but at lower intensity distance training (70% or so of maximum heart rate) there is a 'crossover effect'. This is a theory, but is one I have come to embrace based upon available literature, observation of this effect while being a personal trainer for elite athletes over two decades, and being a triathlete and cyclist for many years personally. During the initial phase of exercise, you will burn almost all carbohydrate. As you pass through 30 minutes of aerobic activity and move towards an hour or more, the body gradually switches to burning a larger percentage of calories from fat. It does this in part to help protect the glycogen stores in the muscle tissue, which is why marathoners and triathletes can go great distances before 'hitting the wall'. Elite athletes training for endurance events like a marathon or triathlon typically burn an additional 10,000 to 15,000 calories a week- so you can see how there is no way they would be able to eat a 'purist' version of a McDougall type of diet. If they did, these athletes would have to spend a great deal of time eating- and it would still be hard to get enough calories from a diet based on whole foods. There is some adaptation that occurs, and the body becomes more efficient at utilizing calories, but for someone like faiblengras or bikinglady there may need to be some adjustments made.

Here are some of the adaptations to the diet that I have made. My hikes are typically a minimum of ninety minutes most days of the week, often exceed two hours, and occasionally are half day or all day hikes. I live in a rural area on a dirt road outside of town so the woods are only a short distance from my door- I mention this because hiking is different from walking so don't confuse the terms. It would be hard to 'bonk' while walking for long periods of time since our bodies are designed for efficiency while walking (unless you are a power walker). I have lost 40 pounds in 4 months, and am in no hurry to lose the rest of the weight- am saying this to illustrate that you can still lose weight and make some adaptations to the diet. I still follow the McDougall principles, and have been able to avoid added oils- but have incorporated more calories from fat than he typically recommends. We aren't talking about boatloads of fat, but I have added in olives and avocados and nuts, etc. on an infrequent basis. I have also added more nutrient dense starch-based foods into my diet like whole grain bread on an infrequent basis as well. I still have some weight to lose so am careful with nutrient dense food choices, but it is a better option for me to lose weight slowly, as I want to increase lean (muscle) tissue and avoid metabolizing muscle tissue as fuel. The other thing I have done is added a carbohydrate based powder to the water bottles I carry on my day pack. I don't use the amounts recommended on the container since this would be too many additional calories (for me), so I use less. This additional carbohydrate during exercise is very important if your heart rate pushes into the 80% of maximum (or greater) area. The higher your heart rate gets, the more your body will 'crossover' back to burning more carbohydrate as its primary fuel source. Ensuring a constant infusion of small amounts of carbohydrate over the course of your exercise period will help to protect your muscle glycogen by using the carbohydrate you ingest rather than using the glycogen stored in muscle. There are other ways to get this influx of carbohydrate, with gel packets being one of the more popular options among endurance athletes. As faiblengras pointed out, it is just not practical to eat whole foods during exercise. Not only is it inconvenient, but blood flow has to be redirected to the digestive system when you eat whole foods- so an occasional snack isn't bad but I personally would never use whole foods as my main fuel source during exercise. The metabolic processes involved during distance training are a lot more involved than what I have shared, but hopefully enough of the 'basics' have been explained to help those having issues while exercising long periods of time make some informed choices.

[petero]

Here is a video I made that will make you a little more jealous.

Well, it worked like a charm. I'll check out your other videos, too, just to torture myself some more. Is that a DIY wood stove near the beginning there?

Since this is actually a very big thing that has been happening to me and I guess I did not realize it.

Well, actually I was trying to suggest that you're not really bonking. It sounded like you might just be tired from being on a low calorie diet. If that's a problem, you could try eating more starchy foods rather than low calorie vegetables. I've bonked by becoming carb depleted (eating too many vegetables) over a period of time, but the solution has been to eat more carbs before, during, and after activity. Ultrarunner Michael Arnstein says to just eat more sugar, and I tend to agree. (EDIT: by agreeing about sugar, I meant eating it during activity to get more energy, not just eating a lot of sugar all the time).

I don't know why Reikiman thinks its hard or impossible to eat this way and be an endurance athlete. The MWL plan is all about whole foods, but Dr. McDougall allows more processed foods for people who need more calories. 15k calories a week is only 5 more cups of raisins a day, hardly impossible to eat. White bread and tortillas are easy to eat a lot of, too. I have complained about being tired of stuffing myself with food, but I try not to eat anything with added sodium so I stay away from commercial breads except Ezekiel 4:9 Low Sodium, and a loaf of that is VERY filling yet only has 1600 calories. (Tortillas disappeared off my radar somehow even though the corn ones are a whole food.) The other thing is that my complaining isn't all that serious, I don't believe in portion sizes or limiting anything, just adjusting the ratio of veggies:carbs and eating however much you damn well please, even if amazes everyone you know.

The rest of the recommendations there are correct. If you're running, biking, and doing cardio at the gym you'll burn through your glycogen a lot faster than you will hiking. The carb/fat mix your body burns depends on intensity. To spare the glycogen, just eat more sugar or starch. Sports drinks or gels come to mind, but when I hike I prefer cheap and tasty raisins or other dried fruit. I guess the maltodextrin in sports gels is technically a starch so you can say you're a starch-powered athlete.

(The only problem with dried fruit is that it mysteriously disappears in the middle of the night.)