Moderators: JeffN, carolve, Heather McDougall
JeffN wrote:it eventually and almost always leads to portion control, which leads to hunger, which leads to binging
slugmom wrote: But since this "but calories will always count" correction has come up, my brain is hesitating.
momof4 wrote:slugmom wrote: But since this "but calories will always count" correction has come up, my brain is hesitating.
Something that had me confused at first was when I heard the "eat more, weigh less" message. I originally thought it meant to eat more calories, but it means it more volume. That's a big difference!
JeffN wrote:Quiver0f10 wrote:I'd love to see the above sections answered, because I too have found that if I eat too many potaoes, rice, oats etc, even with eating only MWL foods in addition to the starches, that I will not lose weight and even have gained. I consistantly have to resort back to calorie counting to lose.
In the end, calories will always "count" but the problems is just "counting" calories is ineffective because 1) we have very poor tools that are highly inaccurate to count calories with, 2) it eventually and almost always leads to portion control, which leads to hunger, which leads to binging, 3) there are many other factors that may influence the daily fluctuations in weight that we have no way to control for (fluid balance, etc), Even fecal content of the bowels can cause a weight change of several pounds when eliminated if elimination is not regular.
There is just no way to micro manage all these details on a daily basis and that is why trying to micro-manage energy balance on a daily basis is virtually impossible. Some days it will not make any sense and some days it may make too much sense.
This is why calorie density is the much better approach. MWL is based on calorie density. However, the MWL does not recommend living on just starches and gives recommendations for those who are finding the basic recommendations not enough for them to lose weight. We are all individuals and may have different levels of activity, exercise, NEAT, etc. and have to make adjustments accordingly. I reviewed some of these in a recent thread. One of the main recommendations is to increase the volume of vegetables in all your starch based meals to 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume of the plate/bowl.
In regard to calorie density, in my lectures, I say that the group that kept the calorie density of the meals below 400 calories per pound (not 600) all lost weight. Most starches are 500-600 calories per pound with oatmeal being the only exception I know of at around 325. I also say that in the 400-600 calories per pound group, some gained, some lost and some maintained all depending on activity levels, body size, etc. However, these are not cut and dry lines and are taken from averages in studies and may vary slightly depending on the individual.
What doesn't vary is the laws of physics, energy balance and thermodynamics.
I would recommend that instead of calorie counting, lower the caloric density of your meals even further and take into account the other adjustments I recommended in the other recent thread.
In Health
Jeff
Ed Miller wrote:slugmom,JeffN wrote:it eventually and almost always leads to portion control, which leads to hunger, which leads to binging
This is what has finally helped me learn to EAT when I'm hungry. If I don't eat because I want to "lose faster" I get hungry and then eventually - days or weeks down the line - I get fed up with it and feel the overwhelming urge to binge.
While starving myself may be the fastest way to lose weight over the next few days, for me it is definitely not the fastest way to reach my goal weight. The fastest way to reach my goal weight is to eat healthy foods when I'm hungry because I'm ultimately not going to succeed if I treat my body and hunger drive like an adversary.
slugmom wrote: Jeff, thank you for taking time to answer this .... I appreciate that you're still helping us understand!
slugmom wrote:I'm surprised oatmeal has a lower caloric density - it's higher fat by % calories than most other cereal grains, isn't it?
slugmom wrote:One of the things that appeals to me most about this program (as compared to others, and of course besides the whole healthiest thing) is the idea that you can "eat until you're full"
slugmom wrote:I understand what you're saying about how caloric density of MWL foods is what makes that possible, but that one might still gain weight if they over-eat on the most calorie dense foods.
slugmom wrote:Popcorn is allowed on MWL
slugmom wrote:Fruits are limited
slugmom wrote:Popcorn has a much higher caloric density - due to it being mostly air.
slugmom wrote:Even brown rice, potatoes, and barley are above that 400 threshold fruits are not
slugmom wrote:So ... if optimizing weight loss is my goal ... and I'm legitimately hungry, or really munchy and want a snack ... which would be better? Popcorn? Fruit?
slugmom wrote:I'm not quite ready to be happy "snacking" on baby carrots and raw veggies. I know some people do that, happily. I'm working towards that.
slugmom wrote:But I have found myself the last few days putting off eating and being probably overly-concerned about which meal or snack choice would be best, because "calories DO count" and I don't want to end up on the high side, but I also don't want to weigh, measure, or calculate.
JeffN wrote:JeffN wrote: In other words, as long as all your attempts to diet are done through a healthy eating and exercise program, then there are no negative effects and there may even be some benefit (i will find the references) .
Here they are..
In Health
Jeff
The following is a conversation I had with some professional RDs about this topic and I am reprinting it here word for word.....
As I know this is a topic that seems to evoke lots of responses, at many levels, I thought I would take the time to reprint some points from the article,and make some comments, in case anyone wants to dicuss them
And, as I have noted before here on this list many times, I do want to acknowledge that I agree that there are some really bad diets out there and that many people have really bad experiences with diets and many people who do some crazy/dangerous things to lose weight, and there are even some of us (health professionals) that recommend really bad diets........,
but....... that doesnt mean that "all" dieting is bad, or that "dieting" per see is bad or my recommending a very healthy, high carbohydrate, high fiber, nutrient dense and filling meal that "they" will like, for someone trying to lose weight, is somehow insanity. In fact, it seems to me that the article supports such a recommendation.
The article clearly states exactly that..."Among these adolescent dieters, a significant percentage report unhealthy or dangerous weight-loss methods, including use of diet pills, fasting, skipping meals, or using very-low-calorie diets (Table 2). Dieting can be associated with both positive and negative consequences. Dieting adolescents report more health-promoting behavior, such as increasing fruit and vegetable intake, decreasing fat intake, and increasing exercise;"
It also noted that most all the negative consequences of dieting were associated with the these "dangerous" diet habits and not healthy dieting. However, somehow, we want to throw all attempts to diet out. To me, this seems to argue not against dieting, but against unhealthy dietary practices.
I agree.
It says that many of the physical problems are associated with diets that are too low in calories and or the low carb, high fat/protein diets....
"The common theme in many of the reports of morbidity and/ or mortality related to dieting practices is the use of diets that induce ketosis (very-low-calorie diets or low-carbohydrate/high-fat diets)."
And, it was the same for the negative psychological consequences also....
" The most negative patterns of psychosocial and health behavior were found among frequent dieters and purgers.."
And
" Seventy-four percent of patients with bulimia attributed the development of their eating disorder to the inability to maintain a low-carbohydrate diet, leading to carbohydrate craving and subsequent cycles of binging and purging.30 "
That's why I don't recommend a low calorie or a low carb diet nor did I the other day.
I am posting the summary/conclusion and the section of positive aspects of dieting at the end of my post for those who don't have time to go to the article. In the light of all the negative about dieting on this list, I think they are important. And, as most of the negative comments about dieting is in relation to working with the obese, i find the following comments from the article most interesting...
"Dieting and weight loss in obese teens have several potentially positive health outcomes. "
I do not see this article in anyway as "anti" dieting, or "anti" trying to help people eat better. In fact, it recommends in its conclusion... "When weight loss is necessary, the most appropriate method remains modest caloric restriction incorporating a balanced intake of macronutrients and micronutrients, along with increased physical activity. "
All these points support the recommendations I made the other day here and at other times, and my concern with the other recommendations that were made.
Dieting is not bad. Dieting can be very positive.
Regards
Jeff
From the article...
Psychologic and Physiologic Effects of Dieting in Adolescents SOUTHERN MEDICAL JOURNAL • Vol. 95, No. 9
POSITIVE CONSEQUENCES OF DIETING
Despite potential dire outcomes with improper use, positive health consequences are associated with moderate dieting behavior in adolescents. Moderate dieters, those using all dieting methods except vomiting, diet pills, and extreme calorie-restriction, reported more health-promoting behavior than their nondieting and extreme-dieting (those vomiting or using diet pills) counterparts.9,10 Moderate dieters had increased fruit and vegetable intake, a lowered fat intake, and increased physical activity when compared with the other 2 groups. Those trying to lose weight are more likely to decrease servings of high-fat meats and dessert foods and increase days of hard exercise, compared with nondieters.11 Dieting and weight loss in obese teens have several potentially positive health outcomes. Insulin
resistance, hyperinsulinemia, and high cholesterol levels decrease with weight reduction in obese adolescents.5,19 Escobar et al19 found that altered hepatic insulin clearance in obese children was reversible with weight loss, resulting in near-normalization of serum insulin levels. In addition to correction of abnormal results of serum chemistry tests and insulin resistance, weight loss in morbidly obese subjects decreases upper-airway obstructive symptoms and improves sleep function.5 Although energy restriction with moderate dieting has been associated with decreased linear growth, the decreased linear growth velocity is temporary and not associated with permanent stunting.20 A multidisciplinary weight-reduction (calorie restriction with moderate exercise) program for obese adolescents showed that the majority of subjects were able to sustain normal growth velocity while effectively decreasing body
weight.21
SUMMARY
Approximately 60% of adolescent females and 25% of adolescent males have dieted at some point in their lives (Table 1). Among these adolescent dieters, a significant percentage report unhealthy or dangerous weight-loss methods, including use of diet pills, fasting, skipping meals, or using very-low-calorie diets (Table 2). Dieting can be associated with both
positive and negative consequences. Dieting adolescents report more health-promoting behavior, such as increasing fruit and vegetable intake, decreasing fat intake, and increasing exercise; however, dieting in adolescence is also associated with increased health-risk behavior,
such as alcohol and tobacco use, delinquency, and suicide attempts. Additionally, dieting is often undertaken by adolescents who are not above the ideal or normal body weight for their age and physical stature.
Dieting appears to have more negative than positive consequences on the psychologic health of adolescents. Adolescent weight-loss behavior is associated with poor body image, negative psychosocial risk factors, and possibly decreased coping mechanisms, leading to decreased self-esteem. A strong correlation between dieting and the onset of eating disorders exists. One of the most alarming issues regarding dieting is the report of associated mortality. While many of the reports are anecdotal and the majority of patients diet without sequelae, scientific data support potential adverse physiologic consequences of dieting and weight loss, including loss of electrolytes, minerals and trace metals, histologic changes of the myocardium, as well as the potential adverse effects of free fatty acids on myocardial function. Alterations of electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium), minerals, and trace metals may be related to decreased intake (anorexia, deficient diets) or increased losses from the gastrointestinal tract (bulimia or laxative use) and the kidneys (ketosis).
Given all of the potential consequences of dieting and its associated behaviors, obesity prevention should be the primary intervention point, with improved education of parents, adolescents, and children regarding appropriate eating patterns and behaviors. When weight loss
is necessary, the most appropriate method remains modest caloric restriction incorporating a balanced intake of macronutrients and micronutrients, along with increased physical activity. Considering the previous reports of serious cardiac sequelae, very-low-calorie diets or
ketogenic diets should be undertaken only under a physician’s direct supervision, with a pre-diet ECG and frequent cardiac monitoring during the course of the diet. The common theme in many of the reports of morbidity and/ or mortality related to dieting practices is the use of diets that induce ketosis (very-low-calorie diets or low-carbohydrate/high-fat diets). With very-low-calorie diets, ketosis is induced by inadequate caloric intake and fatty-acid mobilization, while with low-carbohydrate diets, ketosis is induced by decreased insulin-release.When such diets are followed without supplementation, alterations of electrolytes, minerals, and trace elements may result in Q-T prolongation and the potential for cardiac dysrhythmias.
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