Nutrients in fresh produce vs frozen or canned- REDUX

[frozenveg]

Thanks, Jeff, for this additional information. (I like to hear good news about my good habits!)

Can I ask a simplistic question (it's probably been asked before)? I talk to folks who try to minimize the importance of eating vegetables because of our poor soil, lost nutrients after picking and processing, blah, blah, blah. So they rely on taking vitamins, and are appalled that I take nothing but B-12 now!

Can I at least make this point with them (I am asking if it's accurate): If it is a fact that some nutrients are lost after picking and processing, then we should eat more of the vegetables, which would then give us the amount of nutrients we need. It seems incredibly simple to me, but is it that simple?

[JeffN]

Thanks, Jeff, for this additional information. (I like to hear good news about my good habits!)

It seems like there is a form of nutritional elitism going on, which is really doing more harm then good. The message is, if the food you eat is not fresh picked organic, local, shady grown, GMO-free, that you picked your self, got at a local farmers market or from some elite health food store, and all blended together in a $500 hi-tech blender, you are not doing any good. And, if you buy any frozen of canned foods, let alone from Walmart, you might as well be eating bacon cheese burgers.

Not to long ago, someone challenged me, asking what I would eat on the local boardwalk by the beach (as I have said I like to spend lots of time there). My response was that I almost always bring my own food but I could easily find something to eat. So, I went there to find dinner and our boardwalk does not feature the fanciest restaurants, mostly pizza places, pubs, seafood shacks, etc. I ended up at an open air pub/restaurant right on the beach (known as a "biker bar") and ordered dinner.I got to sit outside on the boardwalk, 15 feet from the beach, right by the water, next to an open air stage that was featuring a jazz band. I ordered a large garden salad with some balsamic vinegar, a side of fresh steamed corn, a side of fresh steamed broccoli and a fresh baked dry large potato. It was beautiful and filling and cost me no more than $10. I posted the pics and you would not believe the amount of viscous criticism the picture received. Was the corn organic? Was the broccoli organic? Was the corn GMO-free? Was the potato organic? Why was the potato wrapped in aluminum foil? etc etc etc Because of the amount of criticism, I eventually took the picture down. I guess it was just not good enough for most of the people posting and since a 100% organic, GMO-free meal, made without aluminum foil was not available, I should have had the fried shrimp platter, the bacon cheese burger, or the lobster feast. Or maybe the vegan lasagna stuffed full of vegan cheese and soy meat substitutes loaded with salt and fat, or maybe the organic, free-range, wild buffalo steak.

Here is the pic...

Can I ask a simplistic question (it's probably been asked before)? I talk to folks who try to minimize the importance of eating vegetables because of our poor soil, lost nutrients after picking and processing, blah, blah, blah. So they rely on taking vitamins, and are appalled that I take nothing but B-12 now!

Can I at least make this point with them (I am asking if it's accurate): If it is a fact that some nutrients are lost after picking and processing, then we should eat more of the vegetables, which would then give us the amount of nutrients we need. It seems incredibly simple to me, but is it that simple?

Yes, we have covered it in several threads, which I don't have access to this minute but they are in the forum.

Basically, it is not true.

There is always nutrient variance, sometimes even a significant amount, even amongst the same apples grown on the same tree, picked at the same time. Even when you go to the USDA Nutrition Database SR 26, which is the standard for nutrient analysis values, there is no one value for any nutrient in a food, it is an average of a dozen or so samples. So, nutrient variance alone is not the issue.

Even if it was true, it does not matter if the tomatoes grown today have a little less nutrients then the tomatoes grown yesterday. What matters is, does the total nutrient content of the total diet you eat today provide enough nutrients to meet all your needs. And, As I have shown many times by doing the analysis of food grown today, if you follow our recommended guidelines, it easily does.

The real reason why people consume nutrient poor diets has nothing to do with the soil today, but because over 65% of their diet comes from ultra processed and refined foods. The solution is not supplements, but switching to a whole food, plant based, low SOS diet.

Also, remember, more is not always better. Deficiencies are bad and so getting enough and an adequate amount is good & beneficial, but I can't think of any one area in nutrition where more is better once we have hit adequate/enough/sufficient levels.

In Health
Jeff

[frozenveg]

Thanks for the clarification!

What matters is, does the total nutrient content of the total diet you eat today provide enough nutrients to meet all your needs. And, As I have shown many times by doing the analysis of food grown today, if you follow our recommended guidelines, it easily does.

So I can tell my "interested parties"--those who are worried about me not getting enough nutrients without taking vitamins (and who want to assure themselves that they can make up for their lack of eating veggies with vitamin pills)--that as long as we are eating according to the guidelines here, we can be assured adequate nutrients from the food we eat. And thanks for pointing out an important difference--more is not always better. Of course, "more" is different depending on one's audience--more vegetables for my audience, which is likely to get their vegetables in the form of lettuce on their hamburgers and and cilantro on their beef burritos, could still be a good thing!

I can hardly believe (except that I see Facebook!) that people could have given you such grief over your good, healthy boardwalk selections! Everybody's a critic!

[JeffN]

And thanks for pointing out an important difference--more is not always better. Of course, "more" is different depending on one's audience--more vegetables for my audience, which is likely to get their vegetables in the form of lettuce on their hamburgers and and cilantro on their beef burritos, could still be a good thing!

Correct!

Perspective always matter.

And and in this context, my comments regarding more is in regard to, "beyond enough."

I have corrected them above to better reflect this.

Deficiencies are bad and so getting enough and an adequate amount is good & beneficial, but I can't think of any one area in nutrition where more is better once we have hit adequate/enough/sufficient levels.

So, yes, if someone to anyone who is not eating enough, then yes, more is better.

But to someone following these guidelines and eating the recommended amounts of fruits, veggies, starchy veggies, whole grains, and legumes, more, beyond enough, may not be better and in many cases, may be worse.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

It seems like there is a form of nutritional elitism going on, which is really doing more harm then good. The message is, if the food you eat is not fresh picked organic, local, shady grown, GMO-free, that you picked your self, got at a local farmers market or from some elite health food store, and all blended together in a $500 hi-tech blender, you are not doing any good. And, if you buy any frozen of canned foods, let alone from Walmart, you might as well be eating bacon cheese burgers.

Natala, from Engine 2, wrote a great blog on this topic that i think is a must read for everyone.

"A Bag of Potatoes, Microwaves & Being Kind."

http://web.archive.org/web/201404182207 ... eing-kind/

A BAG OF POTATOES, MICROWAVES AND BEING KIND
BY NATALAE2
April 15, 2014

A few weeks ago I got this e-mail:

“Hello, My name is Nancy I am 74 years old. I live on a fixed income and I am disabled. I have diabetes (type 2), and a bad heart. I am very limited in what I can do. I can’t cook anymore, or cut up vegetables. I want to be healthy, please help.”

My response to Nancy was that I was so proud of her for wanting to become healthy, and that despite that she has some difficulty getting around, chopping vegetables or even cooking, I was sure we could help her figure something out.

I went through ways that she could eat healthier, despite her limitations. First, we found a grocery delivery service for her that doesn’t charge over a certain amount. Second, we picked out things that she would not have to prepare. It was mostly all frozen food, oatmeal, some cereals, all things that she only needed to open a bag and heat up in a microwave.

Even some of that was hard for her. The easiest things were the steamed bags (frozen and not frozen). We found that steamed brown rice and steamed (packaged) potatoes were the most simple things for her to prepare, and provided a good source of calories for her as well. She didn’t have to wash the potatoes, poke holes in them or even put them in a microwave safe dish, same with the frozen brown rice.

After 2 weeks Nancy wrote this to me:

“Well dear, my blood sugar in the morning was 132. I am happy, because when I wrote to you before it was always near 250 when I woke up. I think I’ve lost some weight, because my pants are a little loose. I am glad that being healthy isn’t as hard, and I don’t have to chop up lettuce and carrots all day long.”

Nancy’s story is not unique. There are 1000′s of people who have a hard time either being able to prepare food, or sometimes being able to afford it. And, beyond that, there are 1000′s of people who just need eating healthy to be easy. They need it to be a no-brainer. For some that means being able to prepare a meal without chopping, dicing, processing, following a recipe. For some that means that they just need to throw something in the microwave for a few minutes, and not even concern themselves with turning on an oven. It would be nice to think that every persons situation is perfect and ideal. That we could all just go and pick our vegetables from our farm out back, that we could spend time preparing, cooking, chopping to make gourmet meals. And maybe, that is your situation, but for most that is not what they are faced with.

When I started eating this way I was morbidly obese with out of control diabetes that had lead to some serious complications in my feet and legs. I was tired most of the time, and I was severely depressed. It took me so much effort to even want to get out of bed most mornings. I needed this to be simple. For a while, I stuck to my microwaved oatmeal, microwaved brown rice, cans of beans and vegetables.

Now, there are people that might harshly judge me for doing that. “You use a microwave?!” “You used canned beans?!” “You didn’t check to make sure every thing you bought was gmo free and organic?! You didn’t eat local?!”

The reality is, that all of that potentially saved my life. The microwave, the non-gmo/non-organic food, the cans of beans. I still got well. I did not become more sick. I was virtually off all my insulin (over 200 units per day), I was losing weight, my blood pressure dropped into a normal range, an infection that could have cost me part of my leg cleared up, all while consuming things that many people would gasp at.

And you know what? I still use a microwave, I still used cans of beans, I use TONS of frozen vegetables. Sometimes my fruit and vegetables are non-gmo/not organic. And guess what? I’m still getting healthier and healthier.

Recently we ran an article about how to shop plant-strong at Walmart. It was written by one of our brilliant interns. I was honestly surprised by the backlash we got from the article. It was shocking to see how many people were so quick to judge those who shop and work there.

And then we got this e-mail:

“I’m an single mom with 2 young kids. I work at Walmart, full time, and have been there for 11 years. I really like my job actually. Yes, money is tight, like it is for anyone else. I’ve applied to other jobs and they all pay less than what I’m making. I was really upset when I read the comments by your fans on the article on Walmart. No, it’s not perfect, but it’s a job, and I’m fortunate, many people don’t have one. Your article was very helpful to me. I’m obese, and I have type 2 diabetes. I have been struggling to know what to buy, and I work at the store! For the first time in 11 years I was able to go and shop and buy all healthy food. I know that people don’t like Walmart, but for me that is my only option. I wish I wasn’t made fun of and mocked for shopping or even working there. Thanks for knowing that not everyone can afford to shop at fancy stores, I think I can get healthy just fine shopping at Walmart still, even though people might hate me for it.”

I was really sad to see this e-mail. I spent a few years working with people who were struggling. I was always shocked by the harsh judgement those people would get from society. Honestly, for the most part they were doing all they could to make a better life for themselves. Like my family, when I was growing up. We struggled greatly, despite that my father worked a few jobs. We relied on help from others, a lot. I can assure you that the number one priority for my parents was not to shop at fancier stores and to make sure all of our food was organic, it was simply to feed us so that we did not starve.

And the reality is that a lot of Americans are in that situation. In order to change the health of this country it is going to take ALL sides. It’s going to take people knowing how to shop at Walmart. It’s going to take people knowing how to make a perfectly healthy meal in a microwave. Over the next several decades we can start dealing with some of the other issues. But those issues, seem to be more of distractions at the moment, rather than things that will actually solve our health crisis.

We need to focus on the bigger picture for a little bit. We need to practice kindness in the way we interact with others. If someone shops at Walmart, doesn’t use all organic food, can’t shop at their farmers market, is unable to chop vegetables, doesn’t have an oven, they should not be made to feel like they cannot be healthy.

There is a great analogy I used to hear a lot in Church when I was growing up. It went something like this:

A man was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was waiting for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.” The stranded fellow shouted back, “No it’s ok, I’m waiting for something better to come along!”
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”
To this the stranded man said, “No thank you, I’m waiting for something better to come along!”
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”
To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m waiting for something better to come along!”
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water began to rise and he didn’t have a way out, he couldn’t figure out why nothing better had come along – when a voice whispered “you were sent a rowboat, a motorboat and a helicopter! What were you waiting for?!”

The point is, that how we solve this health crisis might not look what we want it to, it might not be pretty, or perfect, or even all at once. Let’s look for ways that we can solve things, help people, even if it is not the “something better” we’re waiting for.

Let’s lift others up. Let’s attempt to cheer people on in whatever step in the journey they are on. Let’s find things that make being healthier, easier for most people. Not one of us is perfect, we all have work to do. And I’m sure that even if whatever it is you are most passionate about, you were not born with that idea, it developed, you learned, you grew, and you worked on over many years.

It’s time we focus on the big picture, and it’s time we start encouraging people where they are, rather than putting them down for even trying.

But back to Nancy. What I didn’t tell you about those steamed, packaged potatoes was that I had sent the link to the product along to Dr. McDougall (who we all know LOVES a potato). I thought it might be helpful for people who might be in Nancy’s situation or just people who need things to be a little bit more easy. He posted it on his facebook wall. And I was absolutely shocked to see the hate and judgement projected over a bag of steamed potatoes. People saying that he sold out, calling him all sorts of names, putting down people who would ever think of touching a bag of steamed potatoes.

And let us not forget that because of Dr. McDougalls work, advice, events, books and more he has saved what I’m sure is 1000′s of lives in the past few decades. Yet, this post suggesting that people buy a bag of pre-washed, steamed potatoes that you microwave, and people were ready to dismiss all of his work.

This product, which might not be perfect in everyones eyes is what Nancy is basing most of her meals off of, and is becoming a healthier person because of it, it could even have a part in saving her life.

We love teaching the plant-strong message, but we hope that along with it comes a message of being kind-strong as well. So before you comment on a facebook post, respond to someones question on a site or in other social media setting, ask yourself it is something that is kind and encouraging. Remember that it could be someones first time even interacting with a page or a website, let’s make sure we are welcoming people, no matter where they are in their journey.

In Health
Jeff

[frozenveg]

That is a fantastic blog, with wonderful insights! And once again--I saw Dr. M's Facebook post about the bagged potatoes the day he posted it, and I haven't looked at Facebook since then, so I had no idea that there were comments so violently negative about the potatoes! Why does that always take me by surprise?? I'm so naive. One of the reasons I actually achieved success this way is because of Dr. M's message that one could eat frozen vegetables! It's one reason I chose my user name here! And here I am, living and thriving, cholesterol and blood sugars normal, energy 1000% higher, and the weight still off (as a former co-worker said to me yesterday, "you're still skinny!"), and healthy as the proverbial horse.

Be kind. Always be kind. It's free, but not always easy.

[JeffN]

I am going to start a FB page for the Nutrition & Health Elites.

Members can eat only 100% fresh grown organic food that is GMO-free, local and in season. At least 80% of their diet (by calories) must be raw food and they must include 2 oz of walnuts every week. They can never use any plastic, microwaves or any salt, sugar or oil, let alone anything that comes in a box, package or bag of any kind or eat white potatoes. They must have a BMI of 22 or less, have perfect lipid and blood numbers and submit their blood work each month for verification and continued membership in the group. The can't smoke, drink, and must exercise a minimum of 30 minutes on most days. They can't drive a car unless it is a fully electric one, use no petrol chemicals in their life and also shun all commercial toiletries, cosmetics & cleaning products except for vinegar, lemon juice and baking powder. Until cell phones are proven safe, they can't use those either and must not live near any high powered electrical wires, airports or major city or traffic.

Oh, my guess is, till computers are proven safe, they can't use those either so not sure how they will access their group.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

I received an email in response to all the posts and comments of late in regard to this topic, saying my message and my guidelines are in and of themselves, too strict and I should "soften" them and my message as I make it too difficult for people.

In a way, this is true. My guidelines are fairly strict as is my message. However, while my guidelines are fairly strict, they are also realistic, healthy and effective with acceptable ranges, they are not elitist and I do not insist on absolute purity.

This is a completely different issue that judging people for where they are on the path and how far they have gone in regard to meeting those guidelines.

Yes, I set the bar fairly high and do not compromise on it. The reason is, my message is not for the general public or for general "vegans." My message is for my clients who are very very sick & come to me looking to recover from and/or reverse their disease. That is the majority of who I work with. That is who comes to the programs I work with.

They come to me or these program usually after all else has failed them. These program help them to recover & reverse their disease as is documented in over 100 published studies over the last 5 decades.

The problem we see on occasion is that many who are not very sick, or just looking for minor changes, join in the discussions not realizing that the main message may not be for them. They may not be the target audience.

That is fine. But I will not dilute my main message because of it as I owe my main audience and clients, nothing less.

For those wanting less, I do show them how to navigate without being as strict.

The problem is that we, as a nation, including the health conscious crowd, are so far off-base, that even when they think they are being healthy, it is so far from what "healthy" really is. I am about to come out with a set of nutrition, dietary and health guidelines for the WFPB world and as we will see, we are soooo far away from what is considered healthy, even by the guidelines of any of the credible national health organizations. So, yes, we take in soooo much added sugars, added salt, refined grains, added oils, etc, so reducing them enough to meet even the national guidelines seems like a long way to go. So, while my guidelines for added sugars, salt, etc may seem strict, they do not insist on absolute purity.

As many of you know, all of this is clearly explained in all my DVDs, talks, articles, etc, especially the ones on moderation and triage.

For those wanting a much softer, easier way, there are many others offering it. My blessing to you as you travel that path.

For those wanting this message, and want to travel along this path with me, I have nothing but compassion, support and hope for you and your progress, no matter how slow or how far you are or get.

However, as we travel the path together, I will continue to hold the bar up high for you with realistic guidelines that are achievable, healthy and effective. I owe you nothing less.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

More on nutrition elitism, perfectionism & neuroticism...

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8179#p439132

In Health
Jeff