Going Organic

A place to get your questions answered from McDougall staff dietitian, Jeff Novick, MS, RDN.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:24 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:Jeff, I am forced to admit that your post above re: Dirty Dozen vs Clean 15 vs organic was a "forehead slapper" for me! Excellent. :oops:


Thank You.

It was actually inspired by a recent conversation with someone who would not touch a non organic strawberry but was eating lots of conventional potatoes. Suddenly, it seemed so obvious that the regular consumption of potatoes, as a percent of total intake, had to be contributing more "potential" residue than the occasional intake of strawberries, even though each strawberry may have more residue. Applying the numbers, just proved this to be correct. Not always, but in many cases.

So, what we really need to do, is look at the full list and base our decisions on our total intake patterns and not just what has the most residue.

There are a few more flies in the ointment, with the list, but I will let those go for now till I come up with well thought out responses.

Again, thanks!

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Re: Going Organic

Postby jamietwo » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:40 am

I grow and buy as much organic food as possible. The studies don't reflect the way I eat. Has there been a study done of people eating a whole foods, low fat, plant-based diet with conventional vs organic?

I know you are against juicing because there are no studies proving that it is healthy for you, but have there been studies of people eating a whole foods, low fat, plant-based diet and supplementing with a glass of fresh carrot/kale/lemon juice vs people eating a whole foods, low fat, plant-based diet and NOT supplementing with a glass of carrot/kale/lemon juice? Just realized this is off topic so let's make it organic carrot juice (which it is in our house!)! :D
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:01 am

For anyone who is unsure of my stance on organic foods, I would recommend re-reading my original posts in this thread and the original points i make.


jamietwo wrote:I grow and buy as much organic food as possible. The studies don't reflect the way I eat. Has there been a study done of people eating a whole foods, low fat, plant-based diet with conventional vs organic?


The individual foods have been compared and overall consensus of all the studies is there is not that much difference in regard to nutrition. This is why the organic industry is not allowed to make that claim. Think about it and think about how many industries push the limit on the claims they make, trying to make things sound better than they are. Yet, the organic industry has never made a claim about their food being nutritionally superior.

The real question is, has there been any harm shown from people eating a healthy diet based on conventionally grown produce?

The answer to that question is no. In fact, the opposite. Virtually every study to date that has shown the tremendous benefit of eating more produce, including in regard to cancer, has been down on conventional produce. Not one health organization, including the independent review of 1000's of studies in 2007 from the WCRF/AICR has recommended organic produce over conventional.

jamietwo wrote:I know you are against juicing because there are no studies proving that it is healthy for you,


Actually, this statement does not accurately reflect my position.

I am not against juicing at all. However, for most people, they are better off consuming food in its whole natural state, rather than juiced.

And, in regard to studies, there are several studies, most all of them posted in this forum, showing how whole foods are superior to juiced foods.

I have no problem with anyone buying organic food (or even juicing). However, for the 70-95% of American who are in ill-health and sick from lifestyle related diseases, there are just not main priorities. In addition, we can not guarantee that what is being sold as organic, really is organic. This is why we do not serve organic food at the 10-Day program nor do we serve juices.

I would recommend you review the threads on "Burden of Proof."

In Health
Jeff

PS for someone who is choosing to buy organic produce, my discussion of the Dirty Dozen would be even more relevant to them.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby jamietwo » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:33 pm

JeffN wrote:The real question is, has there been any harm shown from people eating a healthy diet based on conventionally grown produce?

The answer to that question is no. In fact, the opposite. Virtually every study to date that has shown the tremendous benefit of eating more produce, including in regard to cancer, has been down on conventional produce. Not one health organization, including the independent review of 1000's of studies in 2007 from the WCRF/AICR has recommended organic produce over conventional.


Maybe I'm missing the point? I understand that a diet high in veggies is a good thing. But I'm still hung up on not putting any more toxins in my (and more importantly in my child's) body than absolutely necessary. I will take your advice on re-reading, but I would still like to see a study with everyone eating a clean, high-veggie diet and comparing the outcome with organic and conventional produce.

jamietwo wrote:I know you are against juicing because there are no studies proving that it is healthy for you,


JeffN wrote:Actually, this statement does not accurately reflect my position.

I am not against juicing at all. However, for most people, they are better off consuming food in its whole natural state, rather than juiced.


I'm so sorry I misquoted you. Thanks for clarifying!
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:14 pm

jamietwo wrote: But I'm still hung up on not putting any more toxins in my (and more importantly in my child's) body than absolutely necessary.


I think everyone would agree with that point.

The assumption you are making, is that buying organic accomplishes that. Yet, I do not know of any really good evidence that can support that.

jamietwo wrote: I would still like to see a study with everyone eating a clean, high-veggie diet and comparing the outcome with organic and conventional produce.


We all would. :)

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Re: Going Organic

Postby jamietwo » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:45 am

JeffN wrote:The assumption you are making, is that buying organic accomplishes that. Yet, I do not know of any really good evidence that can support that.


Maybe because they haven't done the studies with the clean veggie diet, organic vs conventional. ;) One of the big reasons I buy organic is to avoid GMO's (and I know that cross-pollination will make GMO's here to stay across the board before long). There may not be studies proving GMO's are bad for you, but show me a long term study (>30 years) showing they are not.

eta: "show me a long term study" was not a request for you to do so - I know they don't exist! Also, I'll get off my soap box. I too am frustrated by the big business organic has become which has taken away the spirit of organic, sustainable agriculture.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:51 am

jamietwo wrote:Maybe because they haven't done the studies with the clean veggie diet, organic vs conventional. ;) One of the big reasons I buy organic is to avoid GMO's (and I know that cross-pollination will make GMO's here to stay across the board before long). There may not be studies proving GMO's are bad for you, but show me a long term study (>30 years) showing they are not.

Avoidance of GMO's is a primary reason we purchase organic foods as well. So stay on your soapbox. People should be aware of the risks to our health, safety and our environment from the rampant contamination of our food supply with genetically modified foods - which has been largely ignored by the mainstream media.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:27 pm

jamietwo wrote:One of the big reasons I buy organic is to avoid GMO's


Organic does not guarantee GMO free.

Organic does not even guarantee it is organic. :)

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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:59 pm

JeffN wrote:
jamietwo wrote:One of the big reasons I buy organic is to avoid GMO's

Organic does not guarantee GMO free.
Organic does not even guarantee it is organic. :)

In Health
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Quite true! The National Organic Program defines a process rather than an end product. There is no requirement for testing the end products of the process. This is from the USDA Q&A on the National Organic Program (NOP):

Q: If a certified organic crop is unintentionally contaminated by a neighbor’s GMO produced pollen, etc., is the organic crop still marketable as organic? According to the NOP regulations, I believe the organic crop contaminated by GMO pollen can still be sold as certified organic because it is not expressly prohibited by regulations to do so.
A: In the preamble to the final rule, we addressed this issue when we stated that, "drift has been a difficult issue for organic producer producers from the beginning...this regulation prohibits the use of excluded methods in organic operations. The presence of a detectable residue of a product of exclude methods alone does not necessarily constitute a violation of this regulation. As long as an organic operation has not used excluded methods and takes reasonable steps to avoid contact with the products of excluded methods as detailed in their approved organic system plan, the unintentional presence of the products of excluded methods should not affect the status of an organic product or operation."

In addition, the Standards allow for the USDA Organic seal to be used on organically produced foods containing up to 5% non-organic ingredients.

Some companies, such as Eden Foods, Inc., go to extraordinary lengths to ensure their products are free of genetically modified ingredients, in particular those (soymilk) that are most susceptible to GMO contamination.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby jamietwo » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:45 pm

Now that I've done more reading about organic and GMO, I just want to :eek: :crybaby: :\ :mad: :crybaby: ... but I've been feeding my son this way for nearly 10 years and I hate to stop now on the (apparently) off chance that it "might" be beneficial. :roll:
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:53 pm

jamietwo wrote:Now that I've done more reading about organic and GMO, I just want to :eek: :crybaby: :\ :mad: :crybaby: ... but I've been feeding my son this way for nearly 10 years and I hate to stop now on the (apparently) off chance that it "might" be beneficial. :roll:


Personally, I would be very upset over the way the industry, who I trusted, misled me.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:20 pm

jamietwo wrote:Now that I've done more reading about organic and GMO, I just want to :eek: :crybaby: :\ :mad: :crybaby: ... but I've been feeding my son this way for nearly 10 years and I hate to stop now on the (apparently) off chance that it "might" be beneficial. :roll:

Children are in the most rapid stage of growth and are the most susceptible to pesticide exposure from diet as well as increased exposure to harmful chemicals from a variety of sources and reasons (lawns, floors, higher respiratory rates, larger skin surface area relative to size, breathing air closer to the ground, etc). It seems that you are doing the best you can food-wise in a flawed system. The alternative is to buy foods containing conventionally grown ingredients which will save you some money. However, you can be assured that such foods overall will have higher levels of pesticides and GMO ingredients.

There are some really disturbing statistics from the CDC on the three-fold increase in food allergy diagnoses in children which correspond to the rapid increase of GMO ingredients in our food supply:

Average Numbers of Visits per Year to EDs, Hospital Outpatient Departments, and Physician Offices With Any Diagnosis of Food Allergy Among Children <18 Years of Age in the United States in 1993–2006 Year Weighted Estimate (95% CI), Visits per Year

1993–1997 116 000 (61 000–171 000)
1998–2002 247 000 (126 000–368 000)
2003–2006 317 000 (196 000–438 000)

Data sources were the CDC's NHAMCS and NAMCS.

While the above data does not prove causality, it certainly raises obvious questions about changes in our food supply during this same time period. The report, 'Food Allergy Among Children in the United States' published in Pediatrics in Nov 2009, concluded the following:

CONCLUSIONS
Data from nationally representative health and health care surveys indicate increases in reported food allergy estimates among US children. However, it cannot be determined how much of the increases in estimates are truly attributable to increases in clinical disease and how much are attributable to increased awareness by physicians, other health care providers, and parents. However, the consistent increases across surveys and among children in all age,11 gender, and race/ethnicity groups provide evidence that the increases are not limited to a certain setting, reporting mechanism, or demographic group.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 124/6/1549

The CDC estimates that 4-8% of U.S. children now have food allergies.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:32 pm

Below are links to a series of articles in this week's Time Magazine on the debate about organic food:

What's So Great About Organic Food?
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2011756_2011730,00.html

Farm Vs. Supermarket
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 47,00.html

The Organic Alternative
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 32,00.html
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Re: Going Organic

Postby elgaeb051 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Jeff,

Finally! had a chance to reread this entire thread.

A BIG THANK YOU!!! Yes, I do feel misled. Yes, I do feel better educated.

Yes, I will not be spending unnecessary money on an illusion.

Thank you!

- E

PS: I believe this thread should be given a sticky
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Re: Going Organic

Postby noelalexis2000 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:38 am

jamietwo wrote:Now that I've done more reading about organic and GMO, I just want to :eek: :crybaby: :\ :mad: :crybaby: ... but I've been feeding my son this way for nearly 10 years and I hate to stop now on the (apparently) off chance that it "might" be beneficial. :roll:


I understand how you feel. I buy some of my produce organic because they are high on the list. However, GMO's concern me the most and I won't eat tempeh or tofu that isn't certified organic. I was really counting on the certification process being legit. I read organic consumers online and try to stay up to date on who is selling what and I am happy to say I don't buy most of the big companies organic labels that is packaged. I found two good companies one for tofu and one for tempeh. Hopefully now that Whole Foods has bought out our little HFS they won't drop the items. The tempeh is local in Asheville and the Tofu comes from a small company called Twin Oaks in Virginia. I would like to see everyone fight this GMO stuff through food choices if possible. I think where you spend your money and with who is so very important. I don't dare eat corn on the cob now and Whole Foods is really disappointing as they don't even offer local organic corn and I can't even find organic green beans anymore. I would still like the option of buying organic but the big guys will probably succeed in making it obsolete in the near future. I get very depressed thinking of where we are head. Not a Whole Foods fan since I think they are part of the process of eliminating a lot of our food choices. Instead of buying from small companies and local they go where they get the best deal for their money. Just my opinion!
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