Sleep management

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Curing Phobias

Postby MaryD » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:23 pm

I have discovered a really tremendous answer to curing phobias. DR. FEAR out of the Vallejo Kaiser Medical Rehabilitation Center in California--Phoease Classes. It is the first real solution I have found for my phobia of traveling issues relating to bathrooms. The more you avoid, the more generalized the phobia becomes and then the more restrictive your life becomes. His real name is Dr. Howard Liebgold. M.D. and there is a website for him--http://angelnet.com/fear.html . I hope this may help you with the phobia portion of your question....
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Postby ivy » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:22 am

Thank you for the link, Mary. I'll have to read this. Yes, I already know this about phobias. This is true with both phobias and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Say you have a tramatic event that is associated with a guy with a black mustache. Later, whenever you see a man with a black mustache, you have a nervous attack. One day you're minding your own business in a store, when a clerk walks up to you and says, "can I help you with anything?" He has a black mustache and you are so startled that you faint. The man is wearing a bright green shirt. A month later you pass someone wearing a bright green shirt and am suddenly very nervous and don't know why. They are humming a popular tune. You later hear the tune on the radio and it gives you a stomach ache. There is a lyric in the tune that says "I love you honey". Your spouse comes home and says, "I love you honey" and you are irritated....but you don't know why.

The good news is that, as the associations become further removed from the original event, they become more watered down so it's not really true that you will now fear everything. You will actually be pretty normal. Most people have dozens of things that kind of bother them....as well as dozens of things that make them smile (because positive associations work the same way). This is what gives each of us our own unique emotional fingerprint. I mean, have you ever wondered why you love toy poodles and Laura Ashley prints and your best friend calls your poodle a "little rat" and rolls her eyes at your new bedspread? I should bite my tongue here but I'm going to say this....the whole concept of an endlessly spreading phobic response that takes over your life is a scare tactic that some therapist use to keep people in treatment. It's easy to believe because anyone with a phobia or PTSD has seen it happen to some degree....but it's only in extreme cases that someone's life becomes more and more restrictive because of phobia or PTSD. There are many highly funtioning people who suffer from phobias or PTSD and most people don't even notice.

It's been not quite 2 weeks since I've started my sleep experiment. I fell asleep around 10:30 last night and woke up when the alarm went off at 4:30. I probably would have slept through the night except that the dogs were restless and kept trying to get me up. There has been little to no sign of my sleep phobia in days. Also my nervousness in general has gone way down. I don't think I realized how nervous I was until it stopped. However, I'm skeptical by nature, and won't believe this is working until some time has passed.
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Postby Autumn » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:41 am

Groundhogg- It might be Asperger's, I know I still have a touch of it and its very common with people who have gluten intolerance. Some is cured by gluten free but others it only slows it down a little. Before gluten free my mind would go a mile a minute, although dealing with brain fog made it difficult to be functional. Even though I'm not diagnosing my daughter yet, she has some possible tendencies. After all, her dad and her mom have a touch of it so its very possible for her too. There is not treatment for it so we just go on in life as we normally would anyways.

Ivy- gluten can be found in just about everything, soaps, lotions, shampoos, conditioners. Many people dont worry about it but it does leave a residue on your hands and your still ingesting it when you eat it. Gluten is in wheat, oats, barley, rye, spelt, kamut, and triticale. I think thats it.
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Sleep restriction results -- very good

Postby Burgess » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:49 am

I haven't suffered from depression for about 55 years, but I have had a sleep problem. The problem wasn't going to sleep but staying asleep.

After reading parts of the referenced article in the McDougall Newsletter, I am staying up later -- until c. 10 or 10:30 pm. I continue to get up at the same time every day -- 3:30 am, in my case -- as I have for years. (That is a lesson I learned years ago from reading several books written by sleep specialists). Although I still awaken during the night (for "fluid exchange"), I otherwise sleep much more soundly than I did when I was going to sleep earlier.

An added benefit is that I no longer feel any stress if, by 930 pm or so, I don't feel sleepy. I simply stay up -- though I make sure that I am not resting and I try to do something which needs to be done, a chore, but isn't interesting. That way, I don't get too energized just before the time when I should be going to sleep. Of course, I also avoid all stimulants after about noon.
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Postby ivy » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:12 am

Burgess, thanks for sharing this. I wasn't really sure how to do this but am getting up at roughly the same time each morning. Last night I was really tired in the evening and dragged myself through evening chores and fell into bed exhausted so I thought, I guess I need a little more sleep....but I didn't actually fall asleep until around 10. And then I found myself wide awake in the middle of the night. Went back to sleep and woke this morning at 4. How do I figure out how much sleep I actually need? Will I just automatically know? Or is there an adjustment period? I wish I had in instruction book. The good news is that I'm not having any anxiety at bedtime and this makes it all worth it. But at the same time I'm having a hard time fighting with the notion that I "need" more sleep, especially when I get really tired like I did last night. I made the mistake of mentioning sleep management to a friend yesterday and she said,"well that's just crazy....you need your sleep....sleep is good for you!" I feel like the odd ball again. I'm the one who doesn't eat meat or milk and now I've gone low fat .....and now what? No sleep either! :lol:
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Suggestions on sleep

Postby Burgess » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:14 am

ivy wrote:I wasn't really sure how to do this but am getting up at roughly the same time each morning.

The advice I read years ago and now follow with very few exceptions is this: Get up at exactly the same time. Obviously context matters. If your job is operating a crane that lifts tons of girders up 20 floors on a new building, you might want to adjust your sleep time if there is some disruption in your sleep pattern. Too much fatigue could be a danger. Dr. McDougall mentions this in the article, doesn't he?

For most people, getting up at the same time daily may mean feeling tired some days and not others. Life cannot be squeezed into one "final" pattern. I don't think there is any one "right" amount of sleep for everyone, every day, and under every circumstance. Sometimes, I seem to need only about four hours of sleep per night, for several nights, and then at other times, I seem to need more.
Last night I was really tired in the evening and dragged myself through evening chores and fell into bed exhausted [...]

Were you physically exhausted or mentally exhausted -- or both? There is a big difference. I sometimes make the mistake of thinking I need sleep when I am mentally exhausted but not physically tired. That is a recipe for restlessness. The cure for mental exhaustion, in the absence of physical exhaustion, is to do something different than what I have been doing -- even something simple like go for a walk. It restores me mentally (for now) while tiring me physically (for later).
[...] so I thought, I guess I need a little more sleep....but I didn't actually fall asleep until around 10.

Do you stretch an hour or so before sleeping? I find it helps a lot to use yoga-style stretches of the big muscles and tendons, especially the hamstrings.

Do you have a sleep-routine? Here is mine: After stretching, I get in bed and breath deeply and slowly (in through the nose, out through the mouth). Once I have that routine going, then I tell myself to think about some project that needs doing -- perhaps cleaning the kitchen floor. B-o-r-i-n-g. I usually fall asleep quickly.
And then I found myself wide awake in the middle of the night.

This happens to me too sometimes. I use the time to get something done, if I truly am "wide awake" in the middle of the night. Often, however, just thinking about doing some chore at 1 am makes me sleepy. My favorite sedative is thinking about doing sewing that needs to be done for repair of clothing. Zzzzzzzz.
How do I figure out how much sleep I actually need? Will I just automatically know? Or is there an adjustment period? I wish I had in instruction book.

We have to write our own instruction book for life. As for sleep: experiment. Isn't that what Dr. McDougall suggested in his article? Keep a journal. Try different lengths for different conditions. For example, I notice that, not surprisingly, I sleep much more soundly at night if I have worked out by lifting weights late in the afternoon or early in the evening, followed by stretching an hour or so before getting into bed. (The stretches should not be backbends or similar moves which are energizing rather than relaxing.)
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Postby ivy » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:09 am

Burgess...to answer your questions...

I say that I'm getting up at "roughly" the same time because the clock is always set for 4:30 but I get up before it goes off. I won't stay in bed once I'm awake but my waking time varies....anywhere from 3:00 to 4:28.

I wasn't physically OR mentally tired....just sleepy. The question I have is..... does this mean that I'm not getting enough sleep.....or does it mean nothing and I am just adjusting to a different sleeping pattern. I've noticed that I'll sometimes get very sleepy and then later be wide awake again. Dr. McDougall warns about being sleepy but doesn't say if this is temporary or a sign that more sleep is needed. You make a good point, that we need different amounts of sleep different days. That should have been obvious to me but I hadn't thought about it. I mean food is like that. Sometimes I eat all day and other days I hardly eat at all.....and I don't see anything wrong with that. But this complicates sleep management.

My bedtime routine consists of ignoring the fact that I'm going to go to sleep. I sew or do paperwork or read. I know this is not what is usually recommended. If I realize that I'm falling asleep, I'll wake up with a pounding heart and short of breath and then it really IS hard to sleep. I do not have anxiety or fear in my life otherwise ...just at bedtime. In fact I have a reputation for being "fearless"....but I am afraid of sleep. I just think sleep is horrifying. However the purpose of sleep management isn't to stop sleeping but to see if it will calm my anxiety. It seems to be doing that. Last night I fell asleep almost like a normal person. And even though I got up during the night (night before last) it wasn't because of anxiety....I was just awake and not tired and I really don't mind having my sleep split up....what I'm trying to avoid is anxiety.

Getting up during the night has been my norm for many years. Because of my somnophobia, I will get out of bed and do something. Sometimes if I'm awake, I'll go to work and go back to sleep later. I actually work well late at night. Sewing is a favorite of mine too. I have an old treadle machine that makes a soothing clicking noise and doesn't wake anyone up. I've gotten used to sleeping in segments so this has been part of my problem with sleep management is that I don't know how many hours I was already sleeping. You're right, I'll have to write my own manual. Darn!!! Dr. McDougall's article was so brief, I was hoping that someone could tell me more about this. But I guess life can't always be that neat. Oh well, this is just an experiment and if it doesn't work out, I can always go back to what I was doing.
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Suggestions on sleep

Postby Burgess » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:22 am

ivy wrote:I've noticed that I'll sometimes get very sleepy and then later be wide awake again.

Yes, that happens to me. I often get sleepy around 8 pm. For me, it's a big mistake to go to bed at that time, better to wait for the next dip in energy, around 10 pm or 1030 pm.

You make a good point, that we need different amounts of sleep different days. That should have been obvious to me but I hadn't thought about it.

It only took me 62 years to figure out.

But this complicates sleep management.

It does if you are striving for exactness in controlling sleep. I don't think it can be done. Frustration results. Better to just accept a wide band of tolerance. Some days, like you, I wake up before the alarm goes on (classical music on my clock radio); and some days I am very groggy when the alarms goes on. And other days, it is just right.

If I realize that I'm falling asleep, I'll wake up with a pounding heart and short of breath and then it really IS hard to sleep. I do not have anxiety or fear in my life otherwise ...just at bedtime. In fact I have a reputation for being "fearless"....but I am afraid of sleep. I just think sleep is horrifying.

Personally, what I would do is look for psychological counseling. I did, once before, for "hurry-sickness," which is a compulsive drive to always work longer and do more. Within only a few sessions, I realized that I had absorbed my father's early death (heart disease, age 54), and so, at the age of 40 or so, I didn't expect to live long. I "had" to work longer because I was running out of time and I hadn't achieved my life goals yet.

Merely having that insight was an enormous relief, and then I was able to work on the issue consciously. Subconscious issues are, by definition, hidden and can't be corrected directly. So they need to be brought out into the light.

The complete solution might be a combination of approaches. That isn't neat either. But there it is. I am finally coming to accept that.
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amount of sleep

Postby AnnaS » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:57 am

Ivy, it seems like you should continue what you are doing, since it's working! Yay! Probably your body will tell you if what you are getting is not enough.

I sleep about 6.5 hours, getting up once in the last couple of hours to let the cat out. I have a lot of nervous energy, and I actually can't sleep more than that. Two exceptions: on the weekend, when I've had some vigorous exercise like a long bike ride, I occasionally do sleep an hour or two more than that, I think because of the physical exhaustion. The other exception is when I'm coming down with a cold or virus--suddenly I notice that I'm falling asleep in the evening or that I can hardly get up in the morning. When that happens, I figure my body needs more rest to fight off the bug.

I think that you will find the level that's just right for you most of the time. Occasionally there will be exceptions but that doesn't mean your plan is wrong.

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Postby ivy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:14 pm

Thank you for the encouragement. I guess I'll just continue to bumble along until I get this figured out. I really do think I feel a difference and this is worth continuing with sleep management.

Burgess...Thanks so much for your insight! I really appreciate it. It made me laugh and made me feel more relaxed about this. As far as Psychological Counseling....been there, done that. It actually helped but didn't solve the problem entirely.....it also cost me thousands of dollars. That's really interesting about the "hurry-sickness". I agree that insight can be helpful. Unfortunately phobias are, by definition, irrational. I have a phobia of sleep and tractors....neither is really that bad anymore. They started at age 4. My parents got divorced that year and would have horrible fights at night. I was afraid to sleep and then one night my dad left and never came back. The same year the neighbors tractor ran into our garage, collapsing one wall. So there you have it. But isn't it amazing that at age 50, I still have these repsonses even though I know they don't make sense.

Anna....oddly enough I sleep less on the weekends when I have a job that is very physically demanding. Also, I have epilepsy, don't drive, so a bicycle is my primary transportation so I always have some sort of running around going on. But yes, this seems to be working. Yay! As far as I can tell, my sleep time is averaging out to 5 or 6 hours a night.
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