Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

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Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:12 pm

Would you guys say bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet could be healthy? Could it be consistent with health and longevity?

I am thinking about that the diet is about calorie restriction for longevity, and bodybuilding (building muscles), even moderate and natural vegan bodybuilding (with no drugs or even protein drinks or processed foods etc) is about and realy demands overeating calories (eating more calories than what is being recommended right?) Far over 2000 calories a day, maybe 3000-6000 calories a day or vice versa for building muscle growth? Which I guees means shorter lives and more risk of diseases, is that right? Is bodybuilding therefore incompatible with health and longlivety and the McDougall diet?

Or can bodybuilding be healthy on a vegan Macdougall diet? Even if it means eating only healthy calories from the Macdougall diet, but let say 4000-5000 calories a day?
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby gracezw » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 pm

You ask whether bodybuilding means shorter lives and more risk of diseases. that is an interesting question.

In my opinion, you don't have to do bodybuilding, or if you do it, you don't have to a professional one, to be in excellent or even optimal health. But if bodybuilding is super important for you, I think you just need to eat as many calories as you can burn.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby gracezw » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:56 pm

Also building muscles from whole plant protein is safer than doing that from processed plant protein, or animal protein.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:38 pm

gracezw wrote:Also building muscles from whole plant protein is safer than doing that from processed plant protein, or animal protein.



Thanks for your answer.

Yes it seem so because vegan protein is much less dangerous to eat because it doesn't have much methionine and leucine as in meat and do not raise IGF1 and so on?

I read this facebook post by Dr. Garth Davis: https://www.facebook.com/drgarth/posts/788763991144511

He also wrote this as a comment: "We don't know what is too much but plant protein doesn't have much methionine and doesn't raise IGF1 or, if it does, it also raises IGF1 binding protein, thereby neutralizing effect. So you can eat as much plant protein as you want, it seems."


Tumeria V Langlois wrote a question: "Should we be restricting plant proteins as well if we are vegan? I am a 54 year old bodybuilder weighing about 115 pounds. Based on consuming 1 gram of protein per kilogram of body weight, I calculated I need about 55 grams of protein per day.I was shocked to learn I was consuming 75 to 80 grams without even trying too! I eat a whole foods,plant based diet and do eat beans and soy. Am I eating too much protein or is the fact that it is all plant protein make this amount OK? Thanks."

Dr. Garth Davis replied: "As I noted above it appears plant proteins are fine. They are low in methionine and don't raise IGF1 as much."


I also did watch this:

"Caloric Restriction vs. Animal Protein Restriction": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwJASNF ... e=youtu.be

"Caloric Restriction vs. Plant-Based Diets": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7AvgBgI8f4


Both this vegan doctors seem to think calorie restriction is unnecessary, you can eat as much helthy vegan food and vegan protein as you wish .If it is the animal protein that are the problem then I guess bodybuilding on a 100 % vergan Dr. Mcdougall diet but eating many calories say 5000 a day is fine and, is not bad for health and longevity? Or is it?

Do you think they are right or wrong?
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:30 pm

If anyone knows the answer to these questions, and want to discuss with me further. Please send me a private mail. Thanks.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby human vegetable » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Could you please clarify what you mean by the term "bodybuilding"?

If you mean fitness training with the main aim of building some modest muscle, then this is definitely compatible with the McD diet, and their combination is superior to the diet alone. Of course, by including some cardio activities (not necessarily as formal exercise), and also watching out for adequate regeneration, you will improve the result even further.

If, however, you mean competitive bodybuilding (getting in contest shape with a fat percentage of below 8%, while building up the maximum naturally possible muscle mass), I'm afraid this is not exactly beneficial for longterm health and longevity, even if combined with an otherwise healthy eating plan. Your short term bodybuilding goals might also be compromised - it seems to me that the extreme physiques presented even on lifetime natural contests can only be arrived at using extreme nutritional strategies than can only be discouraged in a general health context. Of course, you need to pick the right parents as well - elite athletes are born, not made.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:33 pm

If you want to compete I strongly suggest forgetting about that. There are lots of ways to game the system even for so called "natural" body builders. These days, natural bodybuilding simply means "not on steroids and other drugs right now... at least not the kind that can be easily detected."
There are many ways to beat drug tests, from intelligently timed drug cycles to good old fashioned bribery. Today's "drug free" athletes and bodybuilders have a host of favorite drugs, including growth hormone and thyroid meds. And I hope obviously, all that is just not compatible with long term health and longevity.

What has already been said about moderation is good...
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby gracezw » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:41 pm

Geoff, you have said it very well!

GeoffreyLevens wrote:If you want to compete I strongly suggest forgetting about that. There are lots of ways to game the system even for so called "natural" body builders. These days, natural bodybuilding simply means "not on steroids and other drugs right now... at least not the kind that can be easily detected."
There are many ways to beat drug tests, from intelligently timed drug cycles to good old fashioned bribery. Today's "drug free" athletes and bodybuilders have a host of favorite drugs, including growth hormone and thyroid meds. And I hope obviously, all that is just not compatible with long term health and longevity.

What has already been said about moderation is good...
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby geo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:54 pm

Simple answer: There is nothing incompatible between following the McDougall Program and bodybuilding. Period.

Longer answer: Bodybuilding MAY require additional protein (but in only slightly larger amounts than recommended). The McDougall program provides more than enough protein, vitamins, minerals, phyto-nutrients, fiber, water and every other macro/micro nutrient for ALL of lifes needs and that includes bodybuilding (only possible exception is Vit B-12). The McDougall program also provides all the calories you may need and that includes the MWL program. Remember, simply eat when hungry. If you need more calories then simply increase your calorie density of the foods you eat (i.e., eat more starches and less fruits/veggies).

Some other facts you need to understand:

1. You can gain muscle and diet at the same time...(read just about any bodybuilding book written by Dr Ellington Darden). It is absolutely NOT necessary to greatly increase calories to gain muscle.

2. The average male can gain 40-50 lbs of muscle during a lifetime of bodybuilding. The average female half that much, 20-25 lbs.

3. With proper, hard training, the average male can reach about 90% of their genetic potential in 3-5 years. That last 10% of genetic potential can take a lifetime!

4. Muscle gained and then lost, can be regained much easier and faster, than growing new muscle tissue.

5. The only secret to gaining muscle mass is simply to train progressively. You must continuously strive to work harder. Muscles can only be stimulated to grow by giving them a proper stimulous...and thats by constantly giving them increasing stimulous...i.e., progressive resistance.

6. Intensity is the biggest key to increasing stimulous. When I say intensity, I don't necessarily mean weight. I mean level of effort. They are different and most don't understand the difference. You must keep trying to work with a greater level of effort to continuously stimulate muscles to grow. You CAN build muscles without exceedingly heavy weights if you increase your intensity (level of effort) simply by lifting to momentary muscular failure. It pretty much doesn't matter whether you use 100% of 1 RM or 80% or even 35% of 1RM if you work to momentary muscular failure (MMF).

7. Once muscles have been stimulated through training, you MUST rest properly to recover from the exercise. And you must also eat properly as well. Exercise, eat, rest, repeat... working a little harder (more intensly each time) and you will grow muscles and strength to your genetic potential...everything else is just BS or window dressing. Keep it simple because it is simple, just like the McDougall Program.

8. Forget all the nutritional nonsense and bro-science expounded on by so-called body-building experts. Simply follow the McDougall Program and eat when hungry. Proper exercise will lead to bigger and much, much, more importantly, stronger muscles.

9. Muscle size is almost purely genetically determined. Having long muscle bellies is key to potential muscular hypertrophy...most people don't. The real bodybuilding world is a very small group of people, especially in the pro ranks... Having large muscles does not mean you will be stronger...you can be strong without the muscular bulk...but again its all about genetics. Some can gain great strength without getting overly muscular and some can easily gain musculature without being significantly strong...having the ideal of both is very rare...how many Arnolds do you know of?

10. Growing larger muscles will most likely not let you live longer, but it could improve your quality of life. Being stronger however, will help you t live longer aAND have a greater quality of life because you will be less limited in the things you can do.

11. But strength and muscles is only a part of the fitness equation. I would not limit myself to simply bodybuilding (being vain about your looks only goes so far). Seek a well rounded fitness program that include strength, aerobic, and flexibility training to maximize your bodies potential.

Finally, train hard, but safely and you will reach your potential. Don't and you will never know what potential you left behind. Possibilities come with effort.
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Some Random Thoughts on Successful McDougalling
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby f00die » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:35 am

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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:14 pm

human vegetable wrote:Could you please clarify what you mean by the term "bodybuilding"?

If you mean fitness training with the main aim of building some modest muscle, then this is definitely compatible with the McD diet,


Yes that is what I mean. I'm not talking about competing or becoming unnatural huge or anything like that.
Last edited by The Swede on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:26 pm

Thanks for the answers.

Geo, I try to follow the McDougall Program and eat when hungry, but you think it's not necessary to count the calories so I really get more calories than I burn?
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby geo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:55 pm

Geo, I try to follow the McDougall Program and eat when hungry, but you think it's not necessary to count the calories so I really get more calories than I burn?


Yes, counting calories is not needed. The more physically active you are, the more your body will be hungry for fuel (food/calories). You don't need to count them at all. Trying to force extra calories will simply men you will gain fat...fat doesn't flex (as bodybuilders are want to say).

Listen to your body and you will be fine. The McDougsll program won't let you down.
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Some Random Thoughts on Successful McDougalling
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:16 pm

geo wrote:
Geo, I try to follow the McDougall Program and eat when hungry, but you think it's not necessary to count the calories so I really get more calories than I burn?


Yes, counting calories is not needed. The more physically active you are, the more your body will be hungry for fuel (food/calories). You don't need to count them at all. Trying to force extra calories will simply men you will gain fat...fat doesn't flex (as bodybuilders are want to say).

Listen to your body and you will be fine. The McDougsll program won't let you down.



Thanks. Sounds logical when I think of what you are writing. But lets say if I am quite much physically active, and the more active, the more food and calories the body wants, doesn't that mean the more physically active = the more calories I will be eating = the more risk of a shorter life and risk of to suffer from diseases? Because if you are very physically active and need to eat more calories than if you are not as physically active, it becomes difficult to try to do calorie restrition for a longer and healthier life, or do I get it wrong?

Update: And something else I'm thinking about. On a vegan, McDougall diet, which is starch-based, you can eat quite large portions and volumes of food and get and feel full, yet be in calorie deficit or plus minus zero right? (And that's a health benefit If I understand McDougall and Novick correct?) So if you need to make up to 100 calories in excess, can you really trust your body? Is is not so to speak a risk of fooling your body with high volym of food that makes our stomach feel full, but migh be less calories than your body needs when doing exercise? I remember that I sometimes I eat so I felt full, but still lose weight instead of gain, for example.

Why do people then, who exercise physically to build muscles count there calories if it is not needed?
Last edited by The Swede on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby geo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 am

As in everything in life, there is a point of getting too much of a good thing. You have it right seemigly. JeffN has discussed this issue in his forums before on how much exercise is too much exercise and the science seems to indicate that eating more calories and exercising a lot to maintain a specific healthy BMI does not appear to be as healthy as simply eating less calories and being less physically active to maintain the same healthy BMI. But this is relative as explained below.

In other words, if we take 2 people that are both at a very healthy BMI of 20:

1. one person eats less calories and is less physically active (but still does some moderate exercise everyday) to stay at there BMI of 20
2. The other person eats more calories but then exercises a lot more to maintain their BMI of 20

The first person will seem to have the healthier, longer lifespan. Of course this is all relative in that it depends on how much exercise you get!

The optimum exercise (where deminishing returns takes over) appears to be 150-300 mins a week of moderate exercise or 75-150 mins a week of vigorous exercise. At that rate, you will optimize your strength, cardiovascular fitness, flexibility and overall health. Yes you may eat a few more calories but it won't matter. It seems to be the perfect point of both overall health, fitness and longevity.

So whats usually recommended here is about 30 mins of moderate exercise a day. That is plenty of time to get your bodybuilding (both strength and cardio) exercise and some flexibility to maintain optimal levels of fitness and eating the McDougall Program will ensure you maintain the healthiest BMI!.

This type of discussion comes up a lot when it comes to long distance running/marathoning. where a person may spend many hours every week exercising for their sport. The science seems to say that such extreme levels of exercise can be harmful to your overall health.

But with bodybuilding*, especially "natural" types of bodybuilding that include a well rounded fitness regime and healthy eating you really dont have to worry about anything. Just avoid the competitive type of bodybuilding which includes all kinds of drugs and such and extreme levels of exercise. Its just not worth it to try to win a few trophys and medals and the odds you might win money are extremely low.

Hopefully that makes sense.

* oh just for the sake of completeness, when I speak of bodybuilding, I am not talking about the competitive sport or of power/olympic weightlifting. I am talking about the effort to keep a body at optimal levels of strength, cardiovascular fitness and flexibility such that you can maintain a high quality of life that does not limit any of lifes experiences. And yes you will also look great and be attractive to your mates. And if you have the perfect set of genes you may also get that level of muscular hypertrophy that most everybody thinks of when they talk about "bodybuilding" as in the sport.
Last edited by geo on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Some Random Thoughts on Successful McDougalling
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