Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:33 am

Thanks Geo.

What did the research mean by "exercise", when they recommend 150-300 minuts a week? Because there is a big difference between different types of exercise, like jogging to lose weight or lifting weights to get up in muscles, etc. How should we know how much of this time that one should put on muscles and the other type of exercise?

And how to know what is considered to be "less physically active and more physically active"? I guess for example we would burn more calories per week with 150-300 minutes of jogging than lifting weights?
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby human vegetable » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:58 am

Swede, in a former post you say that you are worried about not getting in enough calories on a low density diet. One obvious remedy would be to increase caloric density, yet in a weight-loss context this is discouraged on the McD program.

Maybe it's rather an issue of setting one's priorities straight: As long as there is weight to lose, despite some strength training I think it is still advisable to stick to mostly low density food.

But if body composition is OK and the issue is rather to increase lean mass, more calories may be in order. There are some old McD newsletter articles treating the topic of weight gain.

Also, there is this fascinating new study: http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/03/if-you-go-high-carb-you-better-go.html

Seems that the old McD adage "The fat you eat is the fat you wear" is surprisngly correct. Therefore, when "bulking", the crucial question is not so much, "Do I get enough protein?", but rather, "Have I minimized fat intake?" A low fat intake may be just as important when trying to gain lean weight, as when trying to lose some flab.

Yet, taking a broader view, I think you're following a red herring. You have stated before that you are not interested in becoming "freaky huge", and that you see strength training within a general health and fitness context. Under these circumstances, a slightly slower rate of muscle gain might even be more advisable, especially because it gives all the less well circulated passive structures (bones, tendons, ligaments) time to grow proportionately, avoiding orthopedic issues from acute and overuse injuries. Also, if the journey towards reaching your natural size potential takes a little longer, you can enjoy the ride more.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:41 am

The Swede wrote:Geo, I try to follow the McDougall Program and eat when hungry, but you think it's not necessary to count the calories so I really get more calories than I burn?

Many days I go 4-5 hours between breakfast and lunch. But some days I get cranking on my workout, maybe extra sets, bike faster, whatever, and I find I get hungry 2-3 hours after same breakfast. So I just eat. Might even end up eating 4 instead of 3 meals that day. I count the "listening" to hunger as part of my training because, at least for me, it is still a bit of a learning process.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:51 am

Thanks human vegetable.


I'm not overweight, the amount of fat on my body is below average, in line with what athletes have or underweight have. I weighed in a wave measuring fat, muscle, water, bone, etc. And I am quite skinny, too skinny now I would say.

I would therefore like to build my muscles, restore what I lost at least and eventually a little more than before.I also think more calories should be in order for my to gain some muscles and weight back, but then I am thinking is that in line with longevity and health?

The okinawans and adventists who are eating a vegan diet similar to the McDougall diet (especially the adventists) and as I understand it, they eating around 1800 calories a day (that is less what is usually recommended for men an average of 2000 calories a day), and they stop eating before they feel full and saturated.As I understand it, except that they do not eat meat and eat vegan diet, one important factor is that they only eat around 1800 calories a day, an important factor that they do not suffer from diseases and that they live longer than the average.

So if I'm going to do this, I am quite sure I am going to eat over 2000 calories and probably around 3000 calories of McDougall diet every day, if I start training 150-300 minutes of weight training and jogging every week etc.

Then I can not count on the same health, the same protection against diseases and to live for as long as the okinawans and adventists?

Or have I did misunderstood?

Thanks for the link I will read.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:36 am

Here's my version as a 68 year old, somewhat beaten up, life time total amateur athlete:

1) BEWARE OF BRO SCIENCE! There is so much b.s. out there in gym world it is appalling. Jeff Novick came up with the acronym C.R.A.P. in regards to food but similar could easily apply to Bro Science. Criminally 'Rong Aggressively Promoted. How's that?

2) Take on healthy lifestyle, not just diet, as critical part of "training". That means, really doing ongoing study of how you feel when hungry and when not hungry, learning to read your own body's signals and acting accordingly. Same applies to thirst, fatigue, everything.

3) I do like to use designed templates for my work outs but above all I go by internal cues, by feel. If it feels like a bit "too much", I do less. Less weight, less speed, whatever. If it feels like maybe enough, I stop. This is regardless of what the template says. If I feel like I need an extra day off, I take it. Guilt free.

It has taken me many years, many minor injuries, a couple more serious injuries, overtraining....to get to this point. It is not easy to let go of the culturally and personal psychology driven "more is better", "bigger, faster, harder, longer" mentality but very worth doing so ASAP!

Best to you on this adventure that will last you the rest of your long and healthy life!
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:22 am

Thank you Geoffrey.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby human vegetable » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:34 pm

Sounds like you're the prototypical "hardgainer" who is naturally lean. Even though your build may be ideal for longevity, this is somehow in conflict with present beauty ideals, and you might feel torn between your health commitment and your aesthetic endeavors.

Geoff has a point: Go by feel. If you're hungrier because of your workouts, feel free to increase portion sizes, or consume richer food (again, as advised by Dr. McD personally in his old newsletters). However, if eating becomes a chore, and you feel that you have to force the food down, stop stuffing yourself.

If you do decide to engage in a temporary "bulking" diet, you should carefully monitor your body composition to make sure that the weight you gain is predominantly muscle, and not fat. I think it is most useful to measure skin fold thickness in the 2-3 places where you carry the most fat. Even without computing a body fat percentage (which, whichever method you use, will only be a rough estimate anyways), you get a quick and reliable update on any changes.

In order to get some background on this: How old are you? Have you had any previous exposure to strength training, and if so, for how long? Most naturally lean people won't gain that much muscle whatever they do, so you should set modest goals and have realistic expectations about your progress. The typical mistake would be to turn your wiry physique into a skinny-fat one in the quest for muscle, just as committed by thousands of teenage meatheads worldwide every year.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby The Swede » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:01 pm

human vegetable wrote:Sounds like you're the prototypical "hardgainer" who is naturally lean. Even though your build may be ideal for longevity, this is somehow in conflict with present beauty ideals, and you might feel torn between your health commitment and your aesthetic endeavors.

Geoff has a point: Go by feel. If you're hungrier because of your workouts, feel free to increase portion sizes, or consume richer food (again, as advised by Dr. McD personally in his old newsletters). However, if eating becomes a chore, and you feel that you have to force the food down, stop stuffing yourself.

If you do decide to engage in a temporary "bulking" diet, you should carefully monitor your body composition to make sure that the weight you gain is predominantly muscle, and not fat. I think it is most useful to measure skin fold thickness in the 2-3 places where you carry the most fat. Even without computing a body fat percentage (which, whichever method you use, will only be a rough estimate anyways), you get a quick and reliable update on any changes.

In order to get some background on this: How old are you? Have you had any previous exposure to strength training, and if so, for how long? Most naturally lean people won't gain that much muscle whatever they do, so you should set modest goals and have realistic expectations about your progress. The typical mistake would be to turn your wiry physique into a skinny-fat one in the quest for muscle, just as committed by thousands of teenage meatheads worldwide every year.






Thanks for your answer human vegetable.

Yes I think so too, but at the same time I have done genetic DNA test via https://www.23andme.com/ and the test showed that I have good genetics for building muscles and be strong. My brothers and cousins also have easy to build muscles and are very strong. So I suppose it is in the family, genetic conditions to be strong and build muscles.

I have lost much muscles and have not been traning for long know, still meat eating bodybuilding friends is impressed that I still could be so strong as a skinny vegan who have lost muscles etc against them in strength tests.

But can I go by feel, and eat til I feel satisfied, if (like I wrote here: viewtopic.php?p=590585#p590585 ) the body and the stomach will be satisfied with the volym of food, even if it mean not enough calories I might need? Or do you think the body will naturally, will give signs if it needs more calories even if the stomach is filled with a lot of volym of food (and i fill full), but quit love calorie and not enough?

Also the big question is about bulding back my muscles = more calories = probably more than recommended = shorter life and more risk of disease? ( as compared to the adventists who eats I belive just 1800 calories a day and living longest and most healthiestby all: viewtopic.php?p=590719#p590719 )

I am 32 old man. Cirka 182 cm tall. About 70 kg or so. I have exposure to strength training from 2001 and on and off over the years. Been vegan since 2011.

(When I was like 18 or back in 2003-2004 when my weight was as highest at 85 kilo (but mostly maybe 82-83 kilos or so) if I do not remember it wrong. I ate the standard diet then, but lof carbohydrates but also a lot of meat etc, but I was never overeating, and I was no fat, little fat on my body in general. I was quite thin, but had muscles, lean muscles, but bigger than I have today and six pack etc, and no IBS as today. I guess that is easier when one is at that age)


So I have been weight training and building muscles over the years. Not so much, but I compare myself only to myself and the successes compared to the way I previously had. When I became Vegan 2011, I lost many kilos of weight and quite a lot of muscles. A few years ago, I started weight training again, but this time more seriously than before or less or more like a bodybuilder / athlete. I did not take protein powder or other additives, just 100% vegan, starch-based, plus a lot of nuts, dates, and other high calorie foods. I ate more calories than I did before and what I eat today. I went from a thin vegan to something like a more muscular vegan. So I know it is possible.

In recent years, however, I have barely been weight training at all, and I do not eat all so much calories as I did when weight training, so im back where I started and being a thin vegan. Three reasons for this is. I have had to abandon much of the food and amount I have eaten earlier because I have IBS and many carbohydrates I can not eat (FODMAP), + that big amount of food and calories, as it creates problems and pain in the stomach and assumes that it hurts the body and can not be healthy in the long run. And also I came across some articles and others who suggested that weight training is dangerous, as it shortens one's life and increases the risk of disease, mostly because of the need to eat unnaturally much calories and volym of food that harms the body.

But I do not like how thin I've become, and would have liked to keep those muscles and more that I built. It is also about self-esteem. And I love to lift weight and feel strong.I remember girls gave me compliments for my muscles etc. It may sound vain, and I know health is more important (but mental health is also important), I prioritize health first and I'm not looking for unnaturally big muscles or so as i said, but would like to get back my muscles ( and I know I can) and a little bit while living healthy and long life, if it is possible and compatible? I dont mind if it has to be slower gains.

So, what I am asking myself and you guys is if I should or must sacrifice the gym and the muscles for health, or sacrifice the health for the the gym and the muscles? Or I am thinking if there is an compromise and a middle way to handle this that is healthy, and if so I am trying to figure out how?

I am pondering so much over this, that it becomes painful to think about. Feels mentaly unhealthy to think so much about it. So I have some great anxiety about this and do not know what to think about it, or what actions I should take.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby geo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:40 pm

Swede,
Here are the guidelines that JeffN recommend as to optimal exercise. They come from the CDC but are basically the same from all Exercise associations and should help you understand whats recommended:

https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/prevent ... elines.htm

Let that be your guide as to aerobic vs strength training exercise times.

As to how many calories, don't worry about them. Let your natural hunger drive how much you eat. You will gain muscularly if you do strength exercises properly and rest properly and eat properly. Don't sweat the details, and stop overthinking things.

Exercise with purpose and progressively...going by feel as suggested is fine if your in tune with your body. Just don't work out to the point of pain. Soreness is to be expected for awhile (read up on DOMS, Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). Its different than pain from doing exercise improperly. Be safe always, if unsure just don't do it. Better safe than sorry.
geo

My 1 year Journal McDougalling and results Testimonial
My March 2013 Star McDougaller Story
Some Random Thoughts on Successful McDougalling
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby human vegetable » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:22 pm

Swede, I see your dilemma.

I don't have any reliable sources for my thoughts, it's just what I believe: As long as your body composition stays lean, you refrain from eating animal prdóducts (and therefore avoid the risks posed by saturated fat and animal protein), most of what you actually do eat is McD-compatible whole food, and you respect your individual sensitivities and limitations concerning specific foods, you will be fine. Neither strength training nor eating more will per se damage your health or longevity.

If at one point you already held considerably more muscle than you do now, muscle memory should kick in quickly once you resume regular training and increase caloric intake.

Even though for weight-loss, it is routinely advised here to decrease caloric density, in your case it might make sense to increase it, in order to get in more calories before you feel full. You could do that in the following McD-compatible ways:
- decrease the proportion of fruits and vegs, increase starches
- eat mostly milled grains instead of whole intact grains
- liquify some meals in a blender to make them more easily digestible, so you'll get hungrier sooner
- don't drink anything during and right before/after meals
- add a little more high-fat plant foods such as nuts, seeds and avocados (I would keep this as a last resort, in the light of the study I cited above)

If you're worried about protein, I would pick starches that naturally come with some protein (e. g. legumes and most whole grains and pseudo grains). Incidentally, these two food groups deliver complementary amino acids that result in high-quality protein, that comes without the dangers ascribed to animal protein. A "newcomer" with naturally high protein content is lupin seed (not sure whether these are available where you live). Even though it's called seed it's a legume, with even more protein, but less carbs than beans.

Vegan athletes often take plant-based protein powders (soy, rice, pea), yet as these proteins are isolates, they are incompatible with WFPB diets. A kind of compromise (that surely won't stand up to Jeff's or Dr. McD's scrutiny) are nut and seed flours. These have become quite popular in the alternative health scene here in Germany. Basically, they are made of the defatted remains from oil production. Along with 30-50 % protein, they routinely contain lots of fiber, some carbs and about 10-20 % fat. Because of the fiber content, larger quantities might cause digestive issues, and their slightly higher fat content also prevents them from becoming staples. Even though they aren't whole foods, they're much closer to this ideal than isolates.

All these latter suggestions are not ideal. I would go by McD-compatible ones, and again, there is an old McD-newsletter specifically addressing your issue of gaining weight on a WFPB diet. I think that's what you should implement first, along with a well-planned, progressive workout routine, and see what happens over the next three to six months.

In your place, my mid-term goal would be to regain at least half the size I lost over winter, without much fat gain.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby abit » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:07 am

:-D
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby Dougalling » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:18 am

Hello

Check out The Game Changers video.
Search plant based bodybuilding online.
Image
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby openmind » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:00 am

The Swede wrote:
human vegetable wrote:Sounds like you're the prototypical "hardgainer" who is naturally lean. Even though your build may be ideal for longevity, this is somehow in conflict with present beauty ideals, and you might feel torn between your health commitment and your aesthetic endeavors.

Geoff has a point: Go by feel. If you're hungrier because of your workouts, feel free to increase portion sizes, or consume richer food (again, as advised by Dr. McD personally in his old newsletters). However, if eating becomes a chore, and you feel that you have to force the food down, stop stuffing yourself.

If you do decide to engage in a temporary "bulking" diet, you should carefully monitor your body composition to make sure that the weight you gain is predominantly muscle, and not fat. I think it is most useful to measure skin fold thickness in the 2-3 places where you carry the most fat. Even without computing a body fat percentage (which, whichever method you use, will only be a rough estimate anyways), you get a quick and reliable update on any changes.

In order to get some background on this: How old are you? Have you had any previous exposure to strength training, and if so, for how long? Most naturally lean people won't gain that much muscle whatever they do, so you should set modest goals and have realistic expectations about your progress. The typical mistake would be to turn your wiry physique into a skinny-fat one in the quest for muscle, just as committed by thousands of teenage meatheads worldwide every year.






Thanks for your answer human vegetable.

Yes I think so too, but at the same time I have done genetic DNA test via https://www.23andme.com/ and the test showed that I have good genetics for building muscles and be strong. My brothers and cousins also have easy to build muscles and are very strong. So I suppose it is in the family, genetic conditions to be strong and build muscles.

I have lost much muscles and have not been traning for long know, still meat eating bodybuilding friends is impressed that I still could be so strong as a skinny vegan who have lost muscles etc against them in strength tests.

But can I go by feel, and eat til I feel satisfied, if (like I wrote here: viewtopic.php?p=590585#p590585 ) the body and the stomach will be satisfied with the volym of food, even if it mean not enough calories I might need? Or do you think the body will naturally, will give signs if it needs more calories even if the stomach is filled with a lot of volym of food (and i fill full), but quit love calorie and not enough?

Also the big question is about bulding back my muscles = more calories = probably more than recommended = shorter life and more risk of disease? ( as compared to the adventists who eats I belive just 1800 calories a day and living longest and most healthiestby all: viewtopic.php?p=590719#p590719 )

I am 32 old man. Cirka 182 cm tall. About 70 kg or so. I have exposure to strength training from 2001 and on and off over the years. Been vegan since 2011.

(When I was like 18 or back in 2003-2004 when my weight was as highest at 85 kilo (but mostly maybe 82-83 kilos or so) if I do not remember it wrong. I ate the standard diet then, but lof carbohydrates but also a lot of meat etc, but I was never overeating, and I was no fat, little fat on my body in general. I was quite thin, but had muscles, lean muscles, but bigger than I have today and six pack etc, and no IBS as today. I guess that is easier when one is at that age)


So I have been weight training and building muscles over the years. Not so much, but I compare myself only to myself and the successes compared to the way I previously had. When I became Vegan 2011, I lost many kilos of weight and quite a lot of muscles. A few years ago, I started weight training again, but this time more seriously than before or less or more like a bodybuilder / athlete. I did not take protein powder or other additives, just 100% vegan, starch-based, plus a lot of nuts, dates, and other high calorie foods. I ate more calories than I did before and what I eat today. I went from a thin vegan to something like a more muscular vegan. So I know it is possible.

In recent years, however, I have barely been weight training at all, and I do not eat all so much calories as I did when weight training, so im back where I started and being a thin vegan. Three reasons for this is. I have had to abandon much of the food and amount I have eaten earlier because I have IBS and many carbohydrates I can not eat (FODMAP), + that big amount of food and calories, as it creates problems and pain in the stomach and assumes that it hurts the body and can not be healthy in the long run. And also I came across some articles and others who suggested that weight training is dangerous, as it shortens one's life and increases the risk of disease, mostly because of the need to eat unnaturally much calories and volym of food that harms the body.

But I do not like how thin I've become, and would have liked to keep those muscles and more that I built. It is also about self-esteem. And I love to lift weight and feel strong.I remember girls gave me compliments for my muscles etc. It may sound vain, and I know health is more important (but mental health is also important), I prioritize health first and I'm not looking for unnaturally big muscles or so as i said, but would like to get back my muscles ( and I know I can) and a little bit while living healthy and long life, if it is possible and compatible? I dont mind if it has to be slower gains.

So, what I am asking myself and you guys is if I should or must sacrifice the gym and the muscles for health, or sacrifice the health for the the gym and the muscles? Or I am thinking if there is an compromise and a middle way to handle this that is healthy, and if so I am trying to figure out how?

I am pondering so much over this, that it becomes painful to think about. Feels mentaly unhealthy to think so much about it. So I have some great anxiety about this and do not know what to think about it, or what actions I should take.


If a person's main goal is longevity, they should probably train for strength, not muscle mass.

If a person's main goal is to look like Schwarzenegger, than you should train for muscle mass.

The excess muscle mass will probably not help your longevity.

However, it's your choice. What do you want to do with your life? What makes you happiest? It's the same choice as someone who decides to play football; not a recommended choice, lots of risks, but ultimately up to the individual.

How many years does a bodybuilder take off of their life? I don't know the answer to that, but I guess the closest guess would be to look at the average lifespan of an obese person.
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby Poison Ivy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:46 am

Dougalling wrote:Hello

Check out The Game Changers video.
Search plant based bodybuilding online.


I just watched Game Changers video. That one super strongman with the sideburns looked overweight to me. I mean he had a huge pot belly. Image
I wonder how healthy this guy really is despite his PB diet and amazing strength?
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Re: Bodybuilding on a the McDougall diet?

Postby openmind » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:23 pm

Poison Ivy wrote:
Dougalling wrote:Hello

Check out The Game Changers video.
Search plant based bodybuilding online.


I just watched Game Changers video. That one super strongman with the sideburns looked overweight to me. I mean he had a huge pot belly. Image
I wonder how healthy this guy really is despite his PB diet and amazing strength?


Probably not in ideal health, but the people featured in that movie did not seem to have longevity as one of their top goals.

Ultimately, that is a choice everyone must make, as long as they understand the tradeoffs and the risks. (But often, unfortunately, people are blind to the risks.)
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