Hi, Jeff, (Post was originally in Jeff's category)
My wife and I are about 3 months into WFPB nutrition and have had generally great results so far.
We owe you all big-time for setting us on the right track.
I'm posting today because I have a couple questions that I can't find already brought up in this particular manner within the forum
The first one concerns some thoughts on the fine details concerning oil:
We've eaten plain soybeans, a couple times a week, typically using them where the texture adds variety to the food. I'm assuming that's OK, many recipes in the McDougall cookbook use tofu, and plain soybeans are less calorie and fat dense.
We eat a few whole olives from time to time - but avoid all concentrated oils - tough for us since one of the best olive oils in the world comes from right where we live. Friends and professional contacts think we are crazy for that - and point out that there are studies to back up their opinions from impartial sources - and per capita here they use about a liter a month - but I digress...
Anyway - Soybeans - to my surprise are 40% fat. Of that, 14% is saturated, 23% is monounsaturated, and 63% is Polyunsaturated. So far as I know, that's a lot of fat - no known benefit from that fat, either.
by comparison, Olives - 15% saturated fat, 73% monounsaturated fat, 12% polyunsaturated.
1 cup cooked soybeans, and 3 ounces of plain olives, both about 140 calories as fat
I assume that the main issue with olive oil or other liquid oils is that they are concentrated and thus a rapid delivery of lipids ensues when they are consumed.
So, though we don't do it these days, the idea of putting a teaspoon of olive oil in 5 cups of flour, and making bread, would pass the concentration test - after all, the fat concentration in the finished bread would be far less than in the soybeans or olives.
(Baking 3 ounces of sliced olives into a loaf of bread is ok - but the equivalent volume of pure oil in that loaf of bread can kill?)
(Nutrition perspective - 2300 calories of flour, 50 calories of oil - a fat increase of 2%.)
Meanwhile, soybeans, avocados and nuts are deemed safe, just an issue to the extent that they might cause fat gain... ?
I've come to realize I just don't fully understand this.
A few possibilities, each of which leads to a different conclusion:
1. Any oil is intrinsically dangerous - if so, don't eat any oils, olives, soybeans, avocados, nuts etc.
2. Only oil locked in whole foods is safe? If so please explain difference between tofu mayo and bread dough with some oil?
3. The oil restriction is there to prevent over-indulgence. If so, what sort of real world guidance would be more accurate?
4. Other - that I simply do not yet understand.
A little help here, please.
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Question 2 is easier, I hope - and probably old hat to you.
I'm not suffering from the protein delusion, thankfully.
I understand that the McDougall plan recommends 30-80 grams a day.
So far, so good. RDA at 0.8g/kg for a 200 pounder is 72 grams, and that is based on 2x the need, so 36 grams is cool.
IMHO, being overweight should not count, certainly I don't need to feed extra protein to maintain body fat.
If my best guess at final weight is 150 pounds, I'd gauge protein by that figure instead, and just 27 grams would do.
Shouldn't be a problem.
Well, we've rolled along cheerfully losing fat, never hungry, it's all working as planned. So far, so good.
Meanwhile, we're active and lift weights - not bodybuilders by any means but certainly trying to maintain or even add some lean mass as we age as opposed to giving the nod to sarcopenia. Calls for consistent, gentle load bearing exercise. So far, so good.
As pounds come off measurements get smaller, and we wonder if the losses are all or mostly all fat, or not.
Of concern is rapidly falling appendicular dimensions - likely a good bit of intramuscular fat to be lost, but still...?
At 2AM I start to wonder if we're losing lean mass.
I'm down 25+ pounds so far, but have lost perhaps 10% circumference on arms. That's a loss of 20% of the cross sectional area. Prior appendicular fat was 24%. In theory, possible without lean mass loss - but I'd be dead lean at this point - and I am far from it.
I've therefore begun to count protein grams to see where we stand - and since we work from fresh ingredients and don't buy anything processed, our daily protein seems to be coming up around the low end of the McDougall range, or less.
While it's great that we aren't eating fat and we are using up fat stores, as a result we aren't really hungry just yet. Thus, our food intake is to the low side. This exacerbates the shortfall with 20-30 grams protein a day being typical.
I'm wondering if that needs a tweak.
As far as I can see, yourself have been known to suggest following along the lines of the ADA position paper, or a little less, that 1-1.25 grams/kg protein is a good goal if trying to add some lean mass. (ADA=1.2-1.7)
https://jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/Entr ... _Need.htmlWe're a far cry from those guidelines. At my current bodyweight, that's 90-112 grams a day.
At my best guess at ideal bodyweight, that's still 70-85 grams a day, not 20-30 grams.
My question - we came into this without a lot of lean mass to spare, and with a fair amount of fat to lose.
At this point, we could simply stay the course, or adjust up toward that 1-1.25 g/kg range.
If so, I'd need a whole lot more legumes, and might have to resort to some plant based protein supplements until we get to goal weight and feel the hunger to eat more like maintenance calories.
I'm not in love with the idea of losing half our skeletal muscle during the fat loss phase, then needing to jump through hoops later trying in vain to replace missing muscle mass.
It's a lot harder to replace lost muscle than it is to not lose it in the first place.
Thoughts?
Thank You!!!!!