Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

[Acura]

That's where the exhaustive detail of Mark Simon's and Roberta Russell's posts come in. They provided multiple cases of misconduct or misrepresentations that can easily be verified. This isn't just some, "We don't like him - he's different!" kind of thing.

Is there anything that might have prompted them to go to such an exhaustive details or they did it on their own? for the heck of it. I don't know.

Does anyone believe that Dr. Campbell's comments would've been published over at Dr. Fuhrman's board?

Unless you are saint, this ain't happening, so the above question is really moot. The true test of whether Dr McDougall would allow such comments would depend when someone critiques him or his work in a way Dr Fuhrman was taken to task!

Dr. Campbell came here merely to confirm most of the allegations Mark Simon made.

Obviously Dr Cambell doesn't hang out regularly on this forum so I find it little indigestible that he( Campbell) mysteriously found Mark Simnon's exhaustive work!

Yes, the science is important, but most studies can be manipulated to support various agendas.

Doesn't this apply to everyone?

Dr. Fuhrman has distorted studies to suggest that eating "white rice and white potato" will lead to diabetes, even though he should know that the evidence doesn't actually support that. Those were studies where participants ate refined starches and french fries, not whole plain potatoes or whole grain rice. Yet, his implications frighten his followers away from these healthy foods.

Supporters and proponents seem to be confused on this. Why not categorically say white rice and white potato is not a problem. From my own experience, I can eat a whole lot of white rice compare to brown rice because the former is not as much filling. I would think this would make you overweight and we all know excess weight can lead to diabetes, quick break down of sugar can bring the onslaught of diabetes.

[veggylvr]

Is there anything that might have prompted them to go to such an exhaustive details or they did it on their own? for the heck of it. I don't know.

I agree we don't know the answer, yet, at the same time, if someone goes looking for dirt, and finds quite a bit of it - and then further allegations are made by very credible people, such as Dr. Campbell and Dr. Esselstyn - then that's a lot of smoke to say there's no fire.

The true test of whether Dr McDougall would allow such comments would depend when someone critiques him or his work in a way Dr Fuhrman was taken to task!

I believe Dr. McDougall would answer any criticism here on this board, as he often has. For sure, if he was the type of person to engage in misrepresentations and misuse someone's good name, then he'd also be the type of person to censure any comments. But, fortunately, he isn't that type of person.

Character matters. If you have good character, you don't need to hide things.

Supporters and proponents seem to be confused on this. Why not categorically say white rice and white potato is not a problem. From my own experience, I can eat a whole lot of white rice compare to brown rice because the former is not as much filling. I would think this would make you overweight and we all know excess weight can lead to diabetes, quick break down of sugar can bring the onslaught of diabetes.

Dr. McDougall recommends brown rice, not white, but there is really no credible evidence to support the contention that white rice leads to diabetes. Asian (and other) populations have eaten white rice for centuries and are thin and healthy....or were until our fast food chains invaded them. Now, they may have a problem with diabetes, but they didn't for generations before. Dr. Fuhrman uses studies of asian populations NOW - when they are eating basically the same SAD diet we are - and tries to imply that white rice is the culprit.

He then calls Dr. McDougall's program a "white rice diet" in a transparent attempt to make it seem possibly dangerous and his diet safer. This is an example of how someone can maniplulate the science for their own personal gain.

And it's no small matter. These dietary advisors tell us what we should or shouldn't put into our bodies, and what we should or shouldn't spend money on, so I, for one, really want to feel comfortable that they're interpreting the science accurately.

Unlike Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. McDougall doesn't sell anything, except some convenience foods. They aren't required, or even recommended, just there for anyone who wants them. That's very different from Fuhrman who advises supplemention, which he sells, and even declares some meat consumption is ok. His program is also more complex and expensive.

If you're going to invest your money and health in his advice, don't you want to be sure he's a trustworthy person? Isnt that a relevant concern?

[txveggie]

Why can't people just move on? Dr. McDougal spoke on the subject and that should be enough. I think this Dr. War has turned a lot of people off and I am one of them. I will be taking a vacation from the negativity of all of this.

[healthyvegan]

The more I think about this stuff I come to the conclusion that this should be in a forum of its own WAY WAY WAY down, like under the sandbox! I've just give out quite a few copies of the Starch Solution and don't want anyone turning up here to see anything other that how to make healthy hashbrowns and where to eat on a road trip!

[veggylvr]

Why would anyone be turned off that we're discussing a doctor they probably haven't even heard of? That's silly. This has been a respectful, interesting conversation.

Once again, if you don't like a thread, don't read it! Does everyone click on every thread here every day? I sure don't. If you see "Fuhrman" in the heading, there's nothing that compells you to click on it.

I find it amusing how people show up here, read the thead, then say how disturbed they are that it's here and it should be censored or hidden. It's like those who comment on gossip articles who come on and say, "Why do you even read this crap?"...after they just did.

[Theodore]

Unless you are saint, this ain't happening, so the above question is really moot. The true test of whether Dr McDougall would allow such comments would depend when someone critiques him or his work in a way Dr Fuhrman was taken to task!

Well I don't know about the Fuhrman's boards, but I've been on the McDougall boards for almost two years and I think I've seen people level every insulting accusation there is to make at Dr McD. Most if not all of which have remained on the board uncensored. We even just had someone in the Starch Solution forum insinuating that he's a quack and that his newsletters are untrustworthy. Not to mention the various perennial trolls who've frequented these boards under numerous guises, raising the same flawed challenges over and over again no matter how many times those challenges have been debunked in the past. And this is all after decades of being marginalised by the mainstream medical community because he dared to teach his patients about nutrition.

Dr McD a Saint ? Maybe not. But how much more B.S. does a person have to put up with before they get in that ballpark ?

[veg-e]

However, I never made that claim again and removed all mention of that study on my website and anywhere else I could, once the calculation error was brought to light.

From Dr. Fuhrman's web site, retrieved today:

http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/pdf_product_factsheets/DrFuhrmans_Eat_For_Health_flyer.pdf
"Published medical research documents this as the most effective weight loss method ever recorded in medical history. There was an average two year weight loss of 53 pounds. Most importantly, they kept the weight off!!"

http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/eat_for_health.aspx
"Published medical research already documents this as the most effective weight loss method ever recorded in medical history. There was an average two year weight loss of 53 pounds. Most importantly they kept the weight off."

From "The Official Blog of Joel Fuhrman, M.D.," retrieved today:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/weight-loss-53-pounds-sustained-weightloss.html
"53 Pounds Sustained Weight-Loss" "At the end of two years, 34% of the patients were still actively on the diet. This alone was a remarkable number as few diet exceed 20% compliance after two-years. Their results were unprecedented: Mean Weight Loss: 53 pounds"

[veggylvr]

Thank you, veg-e. That pretty much proves Dr. Campbell's assertion that Fuhrman isn't trustworthy. He came on here, even amid this controversy, and made a false statement. Unbelievable.

[peacenut]

How do we know it was really Dr. Fuhrman who made the original post? What if it was just someone who wanted to stir the pot?

[f1jim]

The posts in the threads that became stickies were in fact posts from Drs. Campbell, Esselstyn, and Fuhrman. They were not imposters. There were conversations going on behind the scenes.
f1jim

[sharetheroad]

Saw your story F1Jim. Awesome!!

Question: I am not new to Dr. McDougall. I am new to this conversation and wondering if someone could fill me in on the controversy. I'm asking because I watched Dr. McDougall recently and he mentioned coming together and understanding who the real enemy to future generations, ourselves, and the planet are; that is, heavy meat eating. I'm wondering if the issue being discussed here is related to that? Anybody? thanks.

amy

[veg-e]

Today, 9/18/2012, one day after my previous post, I checked the links below and found that the references to the study have been removed.

However, I never made that claim again and removed all mention of that study on my website and anywhere else I could, once the calculation error was brought to light.

From Dr. Fuhrman's web site, retrieved today:

http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/pdf_product_factsheets/DrFuhrmans_Eat_For_Health_flyer.pdf
"Published medical research documents this as the most effective weight loss method ever recorded in medical history. There was an average two year weight loss of 53 pounds. Most importantly, they kept the weight off!!"

http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/eat_for_health.aspx
"Published medical research already documents this as the most effective weight loss method ever recorded in medical history. There was an average two year weight loss of 53 pounds. Most importantly they kept the weight off."

From "The Official Blog of Joel Fuhrman, M.D.," retrieved today:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/weight-loss-53-pounds-sustained-weightloss.html
"53 Pounds Sustained Weight-Loss" "At the end of two years, 34% of the patients were still actively on the diet. This alone was a remarkable number as few diet exceed 20% compliance after two-years. Their results were unprecedented: Mean Weight Loss: 53 pounds"

[Debbie]

Veg-e,

It is still in the third link in bright red!!! References the study.

Tune into your local NBC station and watch Dr F on Dr Oz and see what he says.

[veggylvr]

Question: I am not new to Dr. McDougall. I am new to this conversation and wondering if someone could fill me in on the controversy. I'm asking because I watched Dr. McDougall recently and he mentioned coming together and understanding who the real enemy to future generations, ourselves, and the planet are; that is, heavy meat eating. I'm wondering if the issue being discussed here is related to that? Anybody? thanks.

Amy, there were some stickies, but I think they've been allowed to move way down the thread list. Basically, there was a discussion here about Dr. Fuhrman misrepresenting a study, in which he had enlisted Dr. T. Colin Campbell as a co-author, and Dr. Campbell later removed his name from the study.

Dr. Campbell came on the board and confirmed that he had removed his name because the weight loss results being touted by Dr. Fuhrman did not match up with the raw data he reviewed, so the study results were being misrepresented.

This is just one of several misrepresentations Dr. Fuhrman has been caught in. Here is Dr. Campbell's post:

Campbell Response

I only recently learned of this post and it is accurate, except for one thing. I did not proactively publish Dr. Fuhrman’s paper as this might suggest.

About 5-8 years ago, I was expressing general interest in Dr. Joel Fuhrman’s work, as I did with a few other clinicians, inviting him to Cornell to give a lecture (as I did for 32 others) and including him in a group of seven to consider a research proposal on how to advance this field. He then asked that I help him publish in a peer-reviewed journal some case histories of his patients and their body weight loss. He thought that my long years of publishing over 350 experimental research papers might help (he had no such papers). I did so because I thought that he had something that needed airing in the professional literature. I agreed for him to use my name as a co-author (but in a secondary place in the list, although later it was mysteriously changed in the journal’s archives to my being first author--leading others to falsely believe that I had done the study).

His manuscript, submitted to two lead journals, was turned down. A couple years later, I became curious and asked him what had become of the manuscript. He replied that it had been submitted to yet another journal, albeit much lower quality, and was being published (in May 2008). Fast forward to the Fall of 2011, when I was reminded by a friend who had used those results and who informed me that something was amiss in the way that Dr. Fuhrman was promoting the findings.

With some difficulty I retrieved a copy of the raw data. Previously, Drs. Sarter and Fuhrman had only provided a summary table of these data—it is rare for secondary authors and reviewers to actually see the raw data. Not only were those data badly miscalculated and misinterpreted but, much worse, Dr. Fuhrman exaggerated in a very public place that this study resulted in "the most sustained weight loss ever recorded in a medical study” (or “in medical history"). This is not factual. Even though Fuhrman was claiming that all of the 56 subjects had lost weight and had kept it off for two years, only 4 had done so. He also said that average weight loss for these subjects was 53 pounds, but upon my calculation of the raw data, it was 34 pounds and then this was only for the individuals who complied. His very public claim that there were 65 patients is false; there were 56 patients. On another very public occasion, he said that there were 100 patients, not the 56 or even the 65 (he was NOT referring to some additional patients beyond the study, as he once claimed).

I decided to submit a letter to the journal (in Sept 2011) withdrawing my support and shared it with Dr. Fuhrman. But to this day, he has refused to acknowledge anything wrong with the paper that I co-authored. Indeed, he continued to use this paper (his only paper) to raise funding from the public for his research. He continues to falsely highlight in a prominent place an average 53-pound weight loss.

More recently, I learned that he also allowed my name to be used in a widely viewed documentary ("Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead"), claiming that I supported his work. My name is placed alongside an image of his food pyramid used to support his work, which I never saw and which I cannot support. Worse, he prominently identifies my institution, Cornell University, in this film (now seen by three million viewers according to the producer), creating a serious professional embarrassment for me.

There is much more to this ongoing nightmare, but this is enough. Destroying the evidence of Fuhrman’s misdeeds, as one of his friends wants to do, does not solve the problem. I simply want it known that I can no longer support anything Dr. Fuhrman says or does. Some have advised that my making this public may hurt this important area of work. But I disagree. Behavior like this only runs the risk of turning this idea into one more food fad for personal gain, a practice that has long plagued the public narrative on food and health. We can do things better and it begins by making a special effort to tell the truth.

[sharetheroad]

wonderful! thank you.